In this jam-packed episode, Dr. Andy Roark sits down with Tabitha Kucera to talk about why animal handling deserves way more respect in the veterinary world. We’re not just talking about holding techniques here. This is about understanding body language, reducing fear, anxiety, and stress (FAS), and elevating handling to an art form. You’ll hear Tabitha’s take on why our old-school training methods don’t cut it anymore, how we can retrain ourselves and our teams to do better, and why learning to handle animals with empathy isn’t just kinder—it’s also more efficient. Whether you’re a vet tech, assistant, or practice owner, this conversation will challenge the way you think about restraint, behavior, and what it means to truly support our patients. Gang, let’s get into this episode!
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LINKS
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ABOUT OUR GUEST
Tabitha Kucera is an Elite Fear Free Registered Veterinary Technician, Veterinary Technician Specialist (Behavior), Certified Cat Behavior Consultant, and Karen Pryor Academy Certified Training Partner. She owns Chirrups and Chatter Cat and Dog Behavior Consulting and Training and is the animal behavior technician at The Gentle Vet in Ohio. Tabitha lectures at both regional and national levels, enjoying the opportunity to help people better understand and connect with animals. Additionally, Tabitha is a Fear Free certified speaker and coach, a Fear Free Practice Certification and Implemention Consultant, and the host of the podcast, Tails from a Vet Tech.
Tabitha offers organizational consulting and education for veterinary clinics and animal shelters, focusing on best practices that address both the emotional and physical needs of animals. She specializes in behavior and training programs and handling skills. Tabitha has contributed to the development of training and behavior programs for numerous veterinary hospitals and shelters and continues to provide ongoing support to these organizations through her consulting work.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Andy Roark: Welcome everybody, to the Cone of Shame veterinary podcast. I am your host, Dr. Andy Roark. I got a great one today. I am here with my friend Tabitha Kucera and we are talking about the art of animal handling. Tabitha has strong opinions about where we are
with animal handling as a profession. And honestly, she’s not impressed and she makes a, good case for why she’s not impressed and how we can do better and where we can go. And guys, I really enjoy this. There’s a lot of behavior in here. There’s a lot of sort of practice management in here.
There’s a lot of professional development and sort of future of training in vet medicine in here. So it’s, it’s a really, it’s a beautiful, it’s a healthy salad with lots of stuff in it that if you really love salads, it’s a healthy salad. If not, it’s a pizza with really great toppings. That’s what it is.
Anyway, it is a awesome conversation. One thing I will say real quick, Tabitha talks a lot about FAS or an FAS scores. But we don’t define the term. If you’re not familiar with FAS, that’s fear, anxiety, and stress. So if you’re talking about an FAS score or a high FAS score, that means high levels of fear, anxiety, and or stress.
And so anyway, I just wanted to define that term at the very beginning. Guys, this is a fun episode. Let’s get into it.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: This is your show. We’re glad you’re here. We want to help you in your veterinary career. Welcome to the Cone of Shame with Dr. Andy Roark.
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, welcome to the podcast, Tabitha Kucera. Thanks for being here, my friend.
Tabitha Kucera: I am so stoked to be here. I always love catching up with you.
Dr. Andy Roark: You are one of those people who just makes me light up when you’re around. Like you just, you make me smile and I just feel this energy just from your presence. But you are, such a positive person and you are such a force of good. And so for those who don’t know you, you are a RVT, VTS behavior.
A CCP. C-A-K-P-A-C-T-P and an E-I-E-I-O-I think. So you are a, you’re a vet, registered vet tech. You are a specialty vet tech in behavior. You are a certified cat behavior consultant, you are a KPACTP. What is that again?
Tabitha Kucera: That’s Karen Pryor Academy certified training partner. All these letters get confusing.
Dr. Andy Roark: So much.
Tabitha Kucera: Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: So what I want people to take away from that is cat’s behavior training partner.
Those are the big thing, not you can do it all. Like you, there don’t have to be cats involved. You do a lot of behavior. You and I have met not earlier this year
Tabitha Kucera: Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: but I saw you speak at Western Vet Conference and you’re amazing and you pack the room and you’re super fun and so anyway. I wanted to bring you on. I wanna talk to you a little bit about your own business. So you are the force behind Chirps and Chatter. It is the company that you have that does sort of behavioral consultations. But the part that I’m really interested in is your organizational consultations. And so you do a lot of work specifically usually around animal handling, is my understanding.
But you work with groups at shelters and in vet clinics and things like that. And so I wanted you to sort of give me an honest. View of the state of animal handling in vet medicine, because I think that animal handling is one of those things where people are like, I totally do that. Yeah, we got no, yeah, we’re great on that.
Check that box, move on. What else you got? And I’m not convinced that everybody in vet medicine has really got animal handling where it needs to be. I think it’s one of those essential pieces that is maybe not sexy or that people think is like. It’s too fundamental for them. I don’t know that that’s true. Tell me if I’m right or wrong here.
Tabitha Kucera: You’re right. It’s the sexiest thing ever. So, like it gets me excited. Let’s get weird. So handling is something that there has been progress, that progress. Which I like to focus on the positive, but big picture there’s a pretty severe problem in animal welfare, but also vet me where handling is not treated as a skill.
So it’s not even treated as like a, it’s a basic skill. So let alone advanced handling is not a real thing I hear about very often.
Dr. Andy Roark: I felt like there was a real surge forward around, Sophia Yin and then Fear Free. And there was a big push, and this was probably, it was pre pandemic, probably 20 15, 20 12 somewhere in there. And I felt like there was a big push and there was a lot of talk about that.
And then Fear Free was kind of getting up and going and, there was sort of a push there. But then I do feel like that has sort of died down a bit. And so, that sort of tracks for me. I’m curious if that sort of timeline works for you and then talk to me a little bit more about where you see animal handling going when it’s done really well. And so I think that you’re right in that we treat animal handling as a basic skill. it’s actually probably an art form, right? There are some people who are truly masterful at this, but I don’t think that they get the accolades or I don’t know that we have a name or a label for them. How, how does that sound with you? Are you on board with that idea?
Tabitha Kucera: I wasn’t planning on becoming this handling guru. But actually what got me into behavior a very long time ago as a technician was I met Sophia Yin.
Dr. Andy Roark: Mm-hmm.
Tabitha Kucera: I, thankfully I had the chance to interact and work with her a bit before she passed and changed my life. I mean, I would not be who I was today without her.
I could genuine and I got to meet her mom and tell her that, which means a lot to me. But that was when my mind was blown and I was like. We all wanna do the best for our patients. And that’s where it started. And then I got really into body language and handling. And then that led, which ’cause it is all behavior, but that led me down this behavior life that I have now.
And it’s not even that I just don’t think we treat it as a skill at all. It’s probably the biggest part of our job from interacting with animals from a safety standpoint, from a. Managing pain and stress. I mean, it’s literally everything and what I was taught, so I only speak for myself now, to be fair.
Is that experience very similar for other people? Yes, but for me, what I was taught as a technician and what a lot of people are still taught are things I haven’t done in over 12 years. So something I say that’s a really powerful statement that resonates with me even though I say it all the time was we are still taught the handling techniques that we were taught when animals, we didn’t think animals felt pain.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Tabitha Kucera: That is for real. That is where we are at. So I don’t think, to be fair, to be kind to ourselves, we are not set up for success. We are set up to fail as handlers ’cause we are given no skills. I wouldn’t call what we are taught skill. I would just call force. It’s not really a technique, it’s.
Dr. Andy Roark: How you grab them.
Tabitha Kucera: Right. And then when they move, you grab them harder even though they’re alive and like it’s pretty normal for a leg to shift and then we’re like, it was the poke.
Nope. I’m gonna be honest, everybody, it was you restraining, I don’t even call it restraint because I’m a big language person.
Dr. Andy Roark: Okay.
Tabitha Kucera: Restraint tracks with what I was taught force. When you think of restraint, you think of 1920s mental healthcare. I call it handling because that’s what it is, but. I have very strong feelings.
Dr. Andy Roark: No, I like this. gimme a walkthrough just so people kinda know what we’re talking about here. When you say, you know, hey, there’s these things that we were taught and I, there are these things that are commonly taught that I haven’t done in 12 years. What are the, what are some of the things that you see still being taught that you’re like, I don’t do that.
I wouldn’t do that.
Tabitha Kucera: the biggest thing is none of us are taught body language.
Dr. Andy Roark: Okay.
Tabitha Kucera: we’re taught red. Which I wouldn’t say taught, we’re more taught on the job. Like that dog is barking and lunging and has pilo erection along their back. They are in the red. We probably, we weren’t taught to recognize all those green, yellow signs, so of course this animal did not become aggressive out of nowhere, or exhibit aggressive behavior ’cause I don’t like that as a label, we should be describing behavior.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Tabitha Kucera: But if you don’t know what green, yellow, orange looks like, how are you going to prevent or change up what you’re doing to prevent red? So I think the biggest thing is just foundations. We aren’t taught how to read our patients, which from a pain stand, I mean lots of standpoints is problematic.
But then also I was just taught to, again, not assess approach. Immediately approach. And then with the dog, it’s the whole like, hand around the neck, hand around the, like the lower abdomen having their face. I was taught to put their face right next to my face.
Dr. Andy Roark: like in the crook of your neck
Tabitha Kucera: Like, what the heck are we thinking? And then again, like I said, even though like they’re alive and it’s very normal for them to move. I’m not saying move like five, 10 steps forward, but if you held me in place, I am going to react and escalate severely, not even a little. So we’re taught, I was taught to when hold the dog really close to start.
Dr. Andy Roark: Mm-hmm.
Tabitha Kucera: No other technique. And if they move, hold them tighter.
Dr. Andy Roark: Okay.
Tabitha Kucera: And with cats, I was taught to, again, not assess body language at all, immediately interact with them and put them in an uncomfortable position from the start.
I don’t know why we flip cats. I mean dogs in some cases too, like lateral recumbency is needed in, I’m gonna be honest, very rare situations. And I was taught to essentially put every animal in an uncomfortable position to start.
Dr. Andy Roark: Mm-hmm.
Tabitha Kucera: it would be like me getting my blood drawn and my nurse being like, I need you to do a back flip and stand on your head. Why are you stressed?
Dr. Andy Roark: like they start with a leg sweep and like,
Tabitha Kucera: Like,
Dr. Andy Roark: and you’re down
Tabitha Kucera: yeah, a legs, exactly like their weight isn’t supported. And then again, the scruff thing and when, and then to stretch them. Which I still get emotional because I, I know, not even from a behavior consultant standpoint, because the amount I see in my cases is whoa. But I’m aware of how many cats have pain, especially in their cox femoral joint and high, and I was taught to, it hurts my heart, but to stretch the hell out of these animals.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Tabitha Kucera: So those are the, again, it was really, it wasn’t technique, it was force. And then when they move, you do it again. And then we kind of have learned helplessness as professionals. ’cause we’re like, we just keep doing the same thing over and over again. And that’s hard for us ’cause we aren’t set up for success.
But it’s a big picture, like again, we’re taught force or restraint and really no critical thinking like I approach handling, like I approach anything in medicine or behavior. I approach it from a critical thinking standpoint.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah,
Tabitha Kucera: No one size fits all approach.
Dr. Andy Roark: So I wanna jump back here for a second. So you talked about reading, you know, body language as sort of a foundational pillar. Let’s say that you and I are in practice together, right? And, and we have a new person who’s gonna join the team. And this person is they’re a vet assistant slash possible front desk person. Not sure. But they’ve never worked at the vet clinic before or anything and I look at you and I say, Tabitha, how are we gonna train this person? Not getting too far down in, into the weeds, but a high level, what are the foundational pieces that you feel like someone coming into the vet profession should have in order to be proficient in animal handling?
How do we get someone from blank slate? Perfect scenario, no bad habits to overcome. How do we get them from blank slate to functional animal handler assistant that makes Tabitha smile.
Tabitha Kucera: Actually, I’ll be honest, I think that’s easier.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. Oh, it’s
Tabitha Kucera: Oh yeah. Sometimes.
Dr. Andy Roark: let’s start, let’s start on, let’s start at a low.
Tabitha Kucera: No.
Dr. Andy Roark: the bar
Tabitha Kucera: I love it. I love it. So one, I’m a big and for all of you amazing. ’cause I know there’s a lot of us out there making positive changes and you could feel alone. Something I, ’cause I hear this feedback a lot, but also I’ve been that person at a lot of places. You are showing through doing no matter even if the rest of your staff is not, you are doing the best for your patients and the best for you.
And that is so important and people are seeing it, whether they’re being whatever. If their feelings are they, they see that. So I think a big part of it is I would start having that assistant work with someone that, again, many clinics, I’m gonna be honest, don’t even have an advanced handler ’cause it’s not treated as a skill.
But I would identify the advanced handlers. ’cause we all have our different skill sets. That’s why vet teams are great. And then I would have them shadow with that handler for a week or so, and then have them handle mostly FAS zero to two patients and possibly have them practice on some stuffed animals ’cause I’m a huge fan of that. I’ll do like a lunch and learn or onboarding. Some of the clinics I worked with, with, we’ve created, I, I love onboarding and a lot of clinics don’t do this. I love a, a book, but it’s the same book for 10 years. It’s. When I read it, I’m like, whoa, you have not updated this in a significantly long time.
And this is not how people learn, most people. So I’m a big fan of like, Hey, we’re gonna practice this handling technique on this stuffed dog or stuffed cat for five minutes every day or whatever. And then the shadowing thing and starting them with FAS zero to two patients.
Just that is pretty powerful because you’re creating an environment that’s conducive to learning, which is not common, unfortunately. You’re creating an environment where that person feels comfortable not knowing everything ’cause no one does and we shouldn’t be punished for that. And then where they can ask questions and feels supported and not judged or stupid.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Tabitha Kucera: I’ll be honest, like sometimes I just do a 90 minute lecture on handling and I’ll go to a conference and they’re like, and this is not me being cocky, it, blows my mind. I do have mostly just videos in my lecture, so it’s very visual, but they’ll come up to me and say, I saw your lecture five years ago. It changed my life. This is how I handle animals. So I think sometimes we don’t realize how well people can take in information because it’s even surprised me. I’m like, you saw me lecture once or twice for 60 to 90 minutes. It wasn’t even a hands-on workshop and the amount of people who are like DMing me and emailing me videos of like, we just tried this because I also say start small.
Like, hey, this is a skillset. This is not going to happen in five seconds. Like when I’m at a conference, I always ask Yvette, when, how long was your first spay? How long is it now? Yeah, that’s because, so all of the handling is not gonna look like mine because it is a skill, but it’s blow. It blows my mind.
Like they just were supported and I am welcoming and kind, but all I was was supportive and taught them for 60 minutes at a lecture or two, and they are applying these practical techniques within a day.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Tabitha Kucera: So sometimes I think we downplay things.
Now unlearning things, definitely, of course, no matter what career we’re doing that is more challenging. But then I also think showing through , doing this onboarding, having someone who’s an advanced handler outside of your practice. ’cause my sister’s awesome. I have a bunch of letters by my name.
She still doesn’t listen to me. So it’s not that like your colleagues don’t love you, but there is something about that. There’s probably some psychology term that says what that is.
Dr. Andy Roark: one of my favorite sayings is, you’re only an expert 50 miles from
Tabitha Kucera: Yeah. Ooh, I like that. I’m stealing that.
Dr. Andy Roark: So true. It is like, like I try to tell my kids stuff and I’m like, you know, people, people pay good money to hear what I have to say, and my kids are, they’re like, we are not paying you money.
Tabitha Kucera: And then it’s also really interesting ’cause I talk about handling high FAS patients, which there are very limited resources on this, which is why I have created so many. But it’s really interesting because let’s say you have some anesthetic complications, which unfortunately this is part of our job. We need to talk about it, learn from it.
Things happened. Lots of things, there’s only so much of things in our control. So let’s say you have that, you are going to look at your anesthetic protocols.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Tabitha Kucera: But I’ll be honest, in my 15 years of practice, ’cause I’ve actually collected data on practices which I actually recommend some people do, when we look at bites, scratches, back injuries, instead of taking that in as data
Dr. Andy Roark: Okay.
Tabitha Kucera: and being like, I need to help educate and empower my staff to learn more handling techniques. Not even use handling tools ’cause that’s a whole separate lecture. ’cause I have like five and a lot of the things that are sold out there are very problematic.
But no one looks at that. They’re just like, the dog was being a fill in the blank with the label. Instead of being like, Hey, this is data. None of us are good at everything. Just like anesthetic complications happen. If you have, ’cause I work at some places, which again, they’re amazing ’cause they’re reaching out for help.
But the biggest reason is because they’ve had ten bites
Dr. Andy Roark: yeah.
Tabitha Kucera: in one month.
Dr. Andy Roark: Good
Tabitha Kucera: You know, it would be great if we would be more proactive than that, but again, I, I love that even in that case they are like, Hey, we need help with this. Because I’ll be honest, as a fields, for some reason, we don’t take that in as data.
We just say it’s the Catter dog, which is really interesting to me. I’m not sure why, because when it comes to everything else, which I love about our fields, we would look at our protocols and like adapt and change.
Dr. Andy Roark: So you sort of said, you know, boy, you look around and, and most of us are still doing this the same way. Why do you think there hasn’t been more advancement in, in general animal handling.
Tabitha Kucera: So it’s one of those funny things that I’m learning as I get older. I can’t explain everything. I can’t understand everything. I try to, ’cause I get a lot of contacts ’cause I’m in the field and I work with tons of people and tons of environments.
The biggest thing is, I think as the, just the starting foundation in animal welfare and vet me is handling is not treated as a skill. So I remember this one time I was at, I was doing one of those really big events where you, we do low cost vaccines and exams to hundreds of cats and dogs in a, in like a eight hour period.
And my partner was there who is not in vet med.
Dr. Andy Roark: Mm-hmm.
Tabitha Kucera: And but, and this was a long time ago, so I was a, I wasn’t even as advanced and skilled as I am now ’cause we’re always growing. And I remember some like supervisor, volunteer supervisor person handed him a leash and it was a 80 to 90 pound dog. They were exhibiting fear and stress.
They were tense throughout. Ears were back lunging, barking. I mean, there was so much stimuli, thankfully, you know, even back then I was like, let’s put ’em behind a tree. Let’s minimize. but my partner, I’m so proud of him, even back, he’s like. I’m not comfortable handling this dog, and he got screamed at by the supervisor, but he is not.
He’s an adult and I know this is this crazy concept. We can communicate in a professional way and he’s taught me so much about that. I know that not as in like don’t let people treat me that way. Not as in, I’m not, I’m not professional, but I remember and then that I was like, I’m so proud of him. And the fact that the supervisors like started screaming at him.
That’s, I feel like unfortunately that’s most people’s experiences, which is really. So we’re putting humans at risk, animals at risk, and we’re not. If all your team doesn’t feel safe, then we’re also, understandably not empowering our educate. We’re setting up our staff to fail, but also have injuries, not get thorough exams.
I can sell this however, because it’s.
Dr. Andy Roark: I was just curious about what you say. I mean, to me, I think that there’s, there’s this inherent trade off right in life of what is the fastest, most convenient thing right now? And we tend to discount what does that path do for us in the long term? And so I think a lot of times what’s fastest today is going to be longest and hardest and most painful in the long term.
And so I think a lot of times when you say aggressive restraint, let’s grab that dog, let’s, you know, headlock on the dog and scruff on the cat. If you’re trying to get something done right now today and getting done with the thing is the metric of success. I go. I get it. If you zoom out and look at the lifespan of the pet, you say, well, you, you may have gotten done fast today, but this, this is a cat that’s gonna become more and more reactive, you know, in the future.
And if every time it comes in it’s going to be more difficult and stressful in the probability of being bitten or, you know, having an incident, it’s gonna continue to go up. And so, yeah, maybe right now, today, you can make a case for doing this if the metric you’re looking at is speed getting done today. I wonder if there’s a way to sort of shift how we judge success, right? So I think it’s a combination of, it’s gotta be a combination of efficiency, right? We can’t wait until the animal falls asleep on its own and then sneak in there.
Tabitha Kucera: But it’s interesting though. I think so something I, because as you are probably similar to me, Andy, where we have the pleasure of educating and meeting tons of different people. And I love feedback and sometimes back as you know, when I first started lecturing, I would hear some of the same things. So now I’ve incorporated it into my thing and I, I, that’s actually a really common myth that I hear
Dr. Andy Roark: Okay.
Tabitha Kucera: It takes longer because. Now I’m skilled. Just like that first spay, you weren’t as skilled.
Dr. Andy Roark: Ah,
Tabitha Kucera: So I, to be fair, I’ll be honest, I also work, I have a weird thing that I do where I work with such high FAS patients who cannot be handled, most likely do in many cases, I’m gonna be honest, to the severe trauma of, I have to be frank, the forceful mishandling of these animals and, no one, they, they either have been fired from their veterinary clinic because again, you sit on this dog, there’s no reason to ever, there’s some nevers, okay? There’s never a reason to sit on a dog.
Dr. Andy Roark: Mm-hmm.
Tabitha Kucera: There’s not a lot of nevers, but that’s one. And the clients, or in some cases, they’re amazing new veterinarians work with me, whether it’s out of state or in person, and we create handling plans together. And this dog can then say like, a sedation takes 90 seconds so I can handle animals like the amount of animals that these, these awesome colleagues of mine spent 20 minutes trying to get a blood draw.
I did it in one to two minutes. So, but I’m also utilizing advanced handling techniques and if I had to like summarize quickly, foundations, I would say communication planning. Considerate approach using a touch gradient. So I call it supportive handling
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Tabitha Kucera: and then safety and management, which may be using a basket muzzle but do we know how to, like in my high FAS handling workshops, I’ll, I’ll be honest, until I got in behavior, I did not have access to ma basket muzzles. We were still using nylon. So I’m like, no wonder this, this poor colleague of mine has never even used a basket muzzle. And then we’re like super high FAS dog. Go! That’s not how to teach people. That’s not great.
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh man. Let me ask you a a potentially controversial question here real quick.
Tabitha Kucera: Ooh.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. Would you, Tabitha, be excited about the idea of a veterinary technician specialty in animal handling? Or do you think that that stays under behavior, and do you think that people recognize that animal handling is part of behavior?
Tabitha Kucera: I would love that. I’ll just be honest, like I don’t, I don’t think people, and that’s the other thing I get people really stoked about handling ’cause.
Dr. Andy Roark: It’s a gift you have. You’re really like, you’reso passionate.
Tabitha Kucera: But it’s so sexy, Andy. It’s like the sexiest thing ever because we’re doing the best for our patients. And that’s the other thing I say all the time ’cause again, most of my patient load is high, high FAS patients.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Tabitha Kucera: So there are always steps, always capital, always to manage, prevent or decrease fear, anxiety and pain. Always, always. And that’s something, ’cause that’s another common myth I hear. Oh, but it’s an FAS five dog. Or I’m in er, I’m like, it’s even more important that you have skills actually in those cases.
So again, it’s, interesting some of these like foundational truths that are incorrect. Our field, so I think, but that’s with anything, I mean, with anesthesia, with practice management, I’m sure you have tons of those that you’ve experienced and have been working to break. I, so I think there’s just, and there aren’t a lot of, I mean, I’ll be honest, there aren’t a lot of advanced, ’cause I teach, I call it practical.
I am actually doing a course on it right now called practical cooperative care where, or collaborative care where there are always steps to minimize, decrease or manage fear, anxiety, and stress. And I think sometimes people don’t realize that. And then I have shelter and vet staff reach out to me all the time, like, do you have resources?
I’m like, I’m gonna be honest. No. Which is why I created a bunch
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Tabitha Kucera: for high, high Fs. And that critical thinking approach of like, what is a handling plan? ’cause. I don’t think many of us, I never used those. I used to not even communicate, not because I didn’t love the vets I worked with, but we would just go in a room
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Tabitha Kucera: and not talk about who’s doing what order are we doing? It blows my mind. I’m like, no. What? Like, now that I know more, I’m just like, whoa.
Dr. Andy Roark: I think you made a really strong argument here. Like I said, I was playing around with the idea of, you know, efficiency, efficiency today is perhaps the driver of what we’re doing. I think you shoot that down pretty well to say, look, increased communication, we can be more efficient.
Like this is, I think you’ve convinced me that that idea I had was, was wrong. I, I think what I would switch to now is to say, ’cause you make a good analogy to practice management and things. And I go, well, you’re right. I see a lot of things in practice management that. That make me shake my head, my justification for them usually is that people use the tools that they have been given, you know, and, and again, if, no one shows them a better way, I don’t think people are necessarily good at questioning.
Is there a better way? I mean, I think that that’s sort of a profound thought of can this be done differently? And, and a lot of people just say, this is how I was shown to do it. These are the tools that I have.
Tabitha Kucera: Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: I’m gonna use them. We’re gonna run outta time here, but let me bring this back around. I’m gonna give you sort of a hard question. Based on sort of our conversation so far is to say, I have no doubt to that people see you lecture and they hear your passion and enthusiasm and they go, ah, I get it. Animal handling. I see it now as an art form. I see it as something that can be elevated. I see a path for growth and developed for myself that I can be really excited about. And as you’re talking about this and you’re talking about FAS and you’re talking about, high FAS patients and you’re talking about sedation and you’re talking about reading body language and they go. It also seems first of all, it seems great because there’s so much that could be done, but it also very can very quickly seem overwhelming to someone who’s had just very minimal training and they’re hearing you and, do you advise those people? Tabitha, if somebody is inspired by this and they’re like, I wanna grow here, but I don’t necessarily have support, I have a practice that’s done it. You know, the old way, let’s say that. Let’s say that you have your standard vet practice where we’ve kind of done it this way forever, and the practice is generally gonna be supportive of your personal growth and development.
Maybe that maybe they won’t agree to throw in and change everything, but they’ll let you get more knowledge and then maybe listen to what you have to say. would you advise that person to start spending time? How can they sort of start their journey?
Tabitha Kucera: That’s a great question. I’ll be honest. It all comes down to body language, so I think. Because, you know, knowledge is power, as corny as that seems, but especially as a tech where it can be sometimes more challenging for my lovely colleagues to respect us it’s just a real problem. The more, and this goes for everything, the more educated and empower, like the more empowered you are.
So I think body language is crucial to be fair with everything, but definitely handling because people will see a video of mine, for example, and say. That animal’s gonna bite you. And again, I’m not judging, that’s really good data ’cause this cat’s FAS has zero, but I also understand why many people are uncomfortable with cats because they’re taught something that escalates fear and stress.
So I think, ‘ cause again, everyone’s like, I know body language. I’m like, mm, no, you don’t. I’m gonna be honest, everyone. And then they see me lecture and they’re like, yep, I didn’t know because I didn’t know, to be honest, I didn’t know. Right. So I, I think understanding body language really, really well is the foundation because then you can adapt in the moment even without maybe knowing some skillset.
’cause we do kind of learn on the job. Sometimes we learn some not great things like again, we learn red through experience, but no green or yellow. So if you can recognize that yellow, even if you aren’t aware of some of these more advanced skills, you by trial and error will adapt in a positive way. But also I really like it.
Because I think, let’s say you are working at a place where you’re going above and beyond. This is your jam. So you might attend some of my lectures or workshops, or you might go to International Cat Care or Fear Free. There’s some we need more. But there’s a few orgs that can help with that. Again, showing through doing no matter what, you are making a difference and you know you’re doing the best by your patients and also keeping yourself safe ’cause that matters.
But also, I’ve been in tons of situations where people are like, they’re fine with this, that F word. Woo. And to be fair, we all should respect each other and be able to communicate, but also I’m not gonna be like, Hey, vet or other tech or assistant, this cat doesn’t like this.
Dr. Andy Roark: Even
Tabitha Kucera: though that is not the worst thing to say, but also that’s not productive.
Dr. Andy Roark: You have to say things in a way that get heard and
Tabitha Kucera: And I can just.
Dr. Andy Roark: it. It’s, it’s not that you’re wrong, but we need to say it in a way that it’s gonna get heard and get heard in a productive
Tabitha Kucera: And then we could describe the body language. So it’s not like I’m arguing, but you can’t, I’m in my, you can’t argue with me. Like, this cat was doing this, this, and this, and now they’re doing this, this, and this.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Tabitha Kucera: Then and then I’ll be honest, like I’m very kind of professional. I’m not saying, but in my head I’m like, same thing with pain.
I’m gonna be honest, there’s been many situations where I’m like, this animal post-op needs more pain control and I might not be listened to. And I, and then I say, ’cause it’s all, that’s why I’m so good at identifying chronic pain and see so much of it in my consults because it’s all body language. So instead of just saying, this cat’s painful, or this dog, which is helpful and you should be communicating that, that’s hard for that vet or that tech, they might just bypass that.
But when you’re describing and then. That animal gets an additional pain med. And then you could say, see now, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, you can’t argue with me.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Tabitha Kucera: I’m right. So I think, ’cause sometimes just saying like, it’s been hard for me, but I’ve recognized everyone has different motivations, just like my animal learners and reducing fear and stress for human patients. Human clients and animals sometimes is not enough motivation. ’cause there’s a lot of these other myths. Like it takes more time, it takes more money. I’m like, actually it saves time, saves money, saves sedation and anesthesia doses is like, so I think that that starting with just knowing body language, like, and always prac, I mean I’m always, you’re practicing every day.
That’s the great news. ’cause you’re working with animals every day. It’s just, you need some tools to be able to identify. oh, lip lick. Oh, they lip lick five times in one minute and the ears went back when I approached.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Tabitha Kucera: And then when I touched, the ears went back forward. Like you’re literally, it’s like you said, Andy, you put it perfectly.
It’s this beautiful art form. Like I’m adapting to my animal as I hold them and my humans too, because, you know, if I have a new human learner, I may use some safety tools that I wouldn’t utilize. As a handler myself, but as you’re a new handler, as long as you’re using those tools appropriately, that makes you feel safer.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Tabitha Kucera: It’s why I tell all my clients like basket muzzles are like seat belts. Because let’s say, and again, I’m just being honest, if I basket muzzle train dogs because it’s a lovely thing, and if my dog was to get injured severely, it’s appropriate behavior for her to bite you.
Dr. Andy Roark: Mm-hmm.
It’s
Tabitha Kucera: not. You know, it’s just normal.
So if my caregiver’s dogs are muzzled, I’m like, I straight up tell them like even though we’re gonna come up with ways to communicate with your vet team and advocate for your dog, or sometimes I even work with the vet team, this is automatically this basket muzzle on your dog. They are less likely to use force on your dog just subconsciously.
Dr. Andy Roark: Okay. Tab, where can people follow you online? Where can they see what you’re up to?
Tabitha Kucera: So you can follow me on TikTok at Behavior Vet Tech and Facebook, Instagram and Blue Sky at Chirps and Chatter, and then chirps and chatter.com. I have tons of handling videos available, but then of course I do lectures and workshops and I’m all over the place ’cause that’s where I have lots more videos ’cause there’s only so much context you could provide online, even though I share tons.
So yeah, definitely. And thank you so much for having me on to talk about this.
Dr. Andy Roark: It’s a pleasure, my friend. I love having you here, Tabitha, thanks for being here. Guys, thanks for tuning in everybody. Take care of yourself, gang.
Tabitha Kucera: Bye everybody.
Dr. Andy Roark: And that’s what I got. Guys, I hope you enjoyed it. Boy, I really like this episode a lot. I really like, it was kind of a sprawling conversation, but it gave me a lot to think about. Tabitha is super fun and she’s always a joy to work with and collaborate with and and to learn from. So anyway, guys, thanks for tuning in, everybody. Take care of yourselves, gang. I’ll talk to you later. Bye.
