Podcast

Dr. Niccole Bruno joins Dr. Andy Roark to talk about an outstanding event she put on at the VMX conference, A Day in Veterinary Medicine, and her company Blend.Vet.

Niccole discusses the “pipeline problem” in veterinary medicine, and the lack of progress we have made (compared to the aspirations of our schools and profession, at least). She talks about what representation and inclusion look like in our education process and also in our practices.

Andy and Niccole talk about the intersection of DEI and hospital culture, and the opportunities for growth commonly found in veterinary clinics.

Finally, Niccole lays out some clear action steps that practices can make to improve their culture and support equity and inclusion in our profession.

You can also listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, Soundcloud, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts!

LINKS

Blend – DEIB Certifications: https://www.blend.vet/

Pawsibilities – https://www.pawsibilitiesvetmed.com/

PRIDE VMC – https://pridevmc.org/

Dr. Andy Roark Exam Room Communication Tool Box Team Training Course: https://drandyroark.com/on-demand-staff-training/

Dr. Andy Roark Charming the Angry Client Team Training Course: https://drandyroark.com/charming-the-angry-client/

Dr. Andy Roark Swag: drandyroark.com/shop

All Links: linktr.ee/DrAndyRoark

ABOUT OUR GUEST

Dr. Niccole Bruno is the CEO & Founder of blendvet, a veterinary hospital certification program in diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging (DEIB). She became interested in veterinary medicine as a child but lacked mentorship until she attended Tuskegee University for her undergraduate studies. Seeing representation and receiving support from her professors and classmates made the dream of pursuing veterinary medicine a reality. She attended Cornell University for veterinary school and along with her classmates became the founders of VOICE, a student organization to promote and celebrate diversity and inclusion. VOICE is now a national veterinary student organization and has since changed its name to Veterinary Students as One Inclusive Community for Empowerment. Dr Bruno graduated from Cornell University School of Veterinary Medicine in 2006.

Dr Bruno has practiced in small animal medicine and surgery for over 16 years, both in NYC/Long Island and Houston, TX. She has served in hospital leadership roles for over eight years. Dr Bruno realized the value leadership has in creating a diverse and inclusive hospital culture. As Medical Director, she became intentional in recruitment and retention of diverse individuals while creating a space for them to thrive. She continues to pay it forward by dedicating much of her time to speaking and mentoring students from all stages of the pipeline to increase representation for Black, Indigenous and People Of Color (BIPOC) students into the profession.

Following completion of the Purdue University Diversity and Inclusion certificate program in 2020, her awareness, continual exploration, and study into the diversity deficiencies of our profession, ignited her vision to create blendvet. Dr Bruno hopes that blendvet can be transformational, creating a space for collaborative learning for individuals and teams in diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging (DEIB). Through blendvet, Dr. Bruno will be executing pipeline programs at veterinary conferences to help promote and advance veterinary medicine for underrepresented students.

Dr. Bruno currently remains a member of the Cornell University Advisory Council, serves as an Advisory Board member for Pawsibillities, a mentorship platform and is a facilitator for MentorVet. In her spare time, she enjoys activities with her husband and two children, Cole and Addison. She loves traveling, her Peloton, football and binge-watching her favorite shows. She has a 15-year-old Shihpoo named Jimmy Choo and a Siamese mix cat named Sushi Roll.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Welcome everybody, The Cone of Shame Veterinary Podcast. I am your host, Dr. Andy Roark. Guys, I got a great one today with Dr. Niccole Bruno. She is the founder and CEO at blend.vet. We are talking about a really fascinating program that she did at VMX this year. We are talking about what Blend’s DEI certification for veterinary practices look like, and we talk about how our profession is moving forward and increasing the diversity that we have. Guys, super thought provoking episode. Niccole is amazing. You guys are going to love meeting her. Gang, let’s get into this episode.

Kelsey Beth Carpenter:
(Singing) This is your show. We’re glad you’re here. We want to help you in your veterinary career. Welcome to The Cone of Shame with Dr. Andy Roark.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Welcome to the podcast. Dr. Niccole Bruno, thanks for being here.

Dr. Niccole Bruno:
Thank you for having me. I’m really excited to be here.

Dr. Andy Roark:
It is my pleasure to have you. Every year I go to the big conferences, so VMX and Western, and I meet somebody there who blows my mind. And at least one person, sometimes multiple people, but you are that person for me this year. I was so glad to meet you in person. I am so interested in what you’re doing and the energy that you have. And just I’m so happy to talk to you and so I appreciate you making time. I’ll tell people the story of how we met. We met at VMX and we were at a reception and there were a bunch of people there, and I had been there for a while. And someone was like, “Oh, you have to meet Dr. Bruno. You have to meet Dr. Bruno.” And I said, “Oh yeah, okay, absolutely, I’d like that.”
And so I met you and you were amazing and you were telling me about, it’s called A Day in Veterinary Medicine, which is a program that you ran at VMX, which is phenomenal and interesting and we’re going to talk about it a second. But you were telling me about that and we were talking. And while we were talking, these other people came over and they stood off to the side, which is not unusual and I’m just going to be…
False modesty aside, it’s not unusual for me because people will… especially at receptions of that conferences. People will come up and they’ll stand there and they generally like to say hi, or I’ve met them at places before and things like that. So you and I are talking and we come to this natural pause point and so then I turn to them and I say, “Hey.” And they’re like, “Hey.” And then they step between us with their back to me and they’re like, “Dr. Bruno, you’re amazing. I was in your lectures today and you are incredible.” And I didn’t catch my face in time, so I think I made that what just happened face.

Dr. Niccole Bruno:
I probably had the same face because I am… I’m not used to that. I’m like, of course they’re waiting for you. Why would they be waiting for me? I didn’t even see them because they were standing behind me. But yeah, that was… I was like, “Wow, what a way to meet Andy today.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
It was awesome. It was awesome because I was like, “Oh my God, she’s amazing. And other people recognize that she’s…” I’m clearly late to the game on the Niccole Bruno train. And it’s just like… It was awesome. But the enthusiasm they had coming up to you and the energy and the questions they had, and I was just like, “Oh man.” You’re doing stuff Niccole. You’re doing stuff that matters that people are getting really excited about. And so I left that conversation with such a full heart going, “This is awesome. She’s doing great things and people are seeing this.” And I felt so good talking to you. So that just made me so, so happy. And so anyway, I really wanted to have you on the podcast and I really appreciate you being here.

Dr. Niccole Bruno:
Well, thank you. And like I said, I think I’m trying to get used to that because it’s been two years of me really pushing this agenda in diversity, equity, inclusion in med. And so it’s surreal when those moments like that happen. But VMX was definitely… I know we just started 2023, but it was a fave so far. It was a really good conference.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, you got to hold onto that. You worked so hard. It’s so obvious. And we’re going to talk about what you’re doing at Blendvet and your other initiatives that you do. You work so hard. Hold onto that. When people come up and say, “Ma’am, what you said was really impressive, and really important to me and it mattered to me.” We call it holding the trophy at Uncharted. We hold the trophy. So you got to hold that trophy because you’re doing work that’s impacting people. So let’s start off. Before we start talking Blendvet, talk to me about a day in veterinary medicine. So I went there and I hadn’t heard much about this program and then in retrospect I look back and I was just fascinated. Can you just lay out… First of all, lay out the idea where it came from and then how the event went down?

Dr. Niccole Bruno:
Yeah, sure. So last year 2022, I was at VMX and it was the first time that I had been there for a while, so I forgot how large that conference was. And then especially post-Covid, it looked a lot larger because we had been hibernating for two years. But I went there and I realized that this pivot that I was making in my career meant that I was going to be in the speaker circuit a lot more. And VMX is held on MLK weekend every year. And historically, I’ve done community service during MLK Day because I feel it’s important. And I realized that I was never going to be home if I was going to be stepping into this speaker circuit and thought about the fact that we were sitting in Orlando during MLK Day and there was an opportunity to give back to the community of Orlando.
And for me, pipeline events or programs have always been very important to me. I’ve wanted to be a vet since I was 12 years old. And even growing up in New York City, there weren’t a lot of opportunities for me to pursue or get that exposure representation in veterinary medicine in those young age. And so I thought it was definitely an age group that we needed to target. And I thought about how it would be great if we could bring the students to the conference and let them get a chance to see us in our realm, so to speak, as opposed to me historically going to schools with all of these props for career day.
So I just pitched the idea to NABC and I said, “Let’s do a believe and belong in veterinary medicine and let students in underrepresented areas in Orlando come to the conference, and I will put together a faculty of amazing veterinarians and technicians throughout all of the diversity that we offer as veterinary professionals, dermatology, surgery, emergency medicine, and general practice. And let the students rotate through these workstations. Let them hear from us and how our journey was into vet med. Let them know that no two journeys are alike.”
And my younger sister’s also a vet. And even growing up in the same household, we have two completely different journeys in vet med. So I leveraged the team that I have as friends and colleagues and we put together this program. And then another important part for me was also allowing the parents to see what their role is in supporting students. I don’t think I could have made it in this profession without my mom who really found opportunities for myself and my sister when there were none. And so wanted her and give her trophy, so to speak. And she spoke with the parents and let them know this is how we as parents can support students into vet med.

Dr. Andy Roark:
What does your sister do?

Dr. Niccole Bruno:
So my sister is a veterinarian. She works for the ASPCA, she does forensics.

Dr. Andy Roark:
That’s amazing. That’s so great. Let’s start to unpack this a little bit. So I’m really interested in the profession as a whole. Diversity pipeline for our profession is something I’m really interested in. I think representation is really important. I think one of my positions is if we want to be the trusted voice of pet owners, then we need to represent pet owners and they need to see themselves at us. And that’s just a big part of us being approachable and building those relationships that we need to have. And so representation, I think it really matters even if you zoom all the way into just getting care for pets, there’s a big piece of that there. Can you give me your perspective on what the pipeline looks like in vet medicine right now, and just start to unpack where we are in terms of representation in the profession and how we’re doing as far as trying to increase our diversity?

Dr. Niccole Bruno:
Yes, I could definitely can. So over… I’ll start where we are currently. Right now as a whole is according to the US labor and statistics. In 2021, we were 93.3% White. Less than 2% are Black veterinarians. Less than 5% are Latinx, and less than 6% are Asian. So overall, less than 10% of veterinarians are diverse as far as racial ethnicity. So when we think about how does that go backwards into the veterinary schools currently, we’re still not seeing… although we’ve had an increase of applicants of… I’ll say the word BIPOC, but it’s Black, Indigenous, People of Color. We’ve seen an increase in those applicants, but we are still not seeing overall an increase in the representation of veterinary students. So according to the AAVMC in 2024, we were still about 75% White as far as veterinary students. So then we go back further into the pipeline where we’re going into colleges. And at a time… And again, these numbers are not new.
This has been going on since I was in vet school. But currently we are going to see a dip from the pandemic. We’ve seen a lot of students that have had to drop out of school, especially for due to socioeconomics or there has been an increase in BIPOC students that haven’t been able to remain in undergraduate enrollment and men. So again, in a profession that’s predominantly women, that’s another factor that hits us from a level of diversity. So we’re seeing this in real time happening. And of course if these students are not in the undergraduate pipeline, they certainly aren’t going to be applying to vet school, which is going to further widen that gap. So pretty much pipeline development is understanding that we need to find the source of where the problem is. And it’s really in all the stages of the pipeline, because when you go backwards even to high school or even into junior high school age years, there’s a problem with students may not be able to get at jobs or get opportunities to get exposure in junior high school to stay in the pathway into vet med.
Their high schools may not have support in as far as programming for them to be exposed to agricultural programs or veterinary medicine in high school. So then when they get to college, they have no idea about what it takes to be a veterinarian and how to start. And although we know that you can major in anything and get into veterinary school, we’re asking these students to dig deeper and see that they can be a psychology major and then go to vet school too. So the opportunities to support students in every stage of the pipeline is critical if we’re really going to be intentional about seeing our demographics change. And historically we haven’t been. And that’s why I’m really trying to shift the conversation to what can we do, and take advantage of the things that we already do well at. We have conferences every year, multiple conferences.
There’s an opportunity for us, especially when we are in the same city every year, to really start a program that allows students to grow with us and see how they develop into our profession. Even if they decide vet med isn’t for them, that’s a win too, right? Because we want people to really know and want to join this profession. But the hope is that by not only exposing them and then showing them what support can look like, because there’s so many people doing amazing work for pipeline that I’m still learning to this day. And it’s a great way to highlight where those places are to be able to guide these students to find them and continue their journey into vet med.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I love your focus on pipeline and it makes a lot of sense to me. Can you go ahead, and let’s step to the side for a moment. When I sort of brought you on, I introduced you as amazing. But I didn’t lay down the fact that you’re practicing veterinarian, you’ve been a veterinarian for 16 years, you graduated pretty much when I did from school. And gosh, you’re a person. So you practice. You are a member of the Cornell University Advisory Council. You serve on the advisory board for Pawsibilities, which is a mentorship platform.
You’re a facilitator for MentorVet, which is the company that Dr. Addie Reinhardt runs and I’m a huge fan of hers. You just do all of these things. And you’re also the CEO and founder of Blendvet. And I want to start to talk about Blendvet a little bit. And so these are all the things you’re doing and you have this emphasis on pipeline, which I think is amazing. I want to come back to in a moment. Can you step over just to the side for a second and talk to me a little bit Blendvet and what your company does, what you do over there?

Dr. Niccole Bruno:
So a lot of what… My goal with starting Blendvet was to create a veterinary hospital certification program in diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. That stemmed from being a veterinary leader, because I used to manage veterinary hospitals, and seeing the values that leadership can display to create environments of inclusion in vet med, and realizing that if we are good as a hospital culture, that just mirrors into how we interact with community. So I felt like that was a way for me to really bring in and emphasize that training in DEI needs to be for all roles in a hospital because we all contribute to culture.
When I started to talk more about the reasons why we needed to improve our culture, why we needed to focus on all the roles in the hospital getting this training and creating a certification so that not only can our clients see that, “Hey, that’s a Blendvet certified hospital. I know that I could be welcome there.” But also our future colleagues as they’re joining, or even people that are looking for jobs as we speak, know that they can find a place or a workplace that they can thrive in.
And that was very important to me because I had been seeing so much of burnout from my colleagues, and I remembered times in my career where I was burnt out and it was usually when I didn’t feel included, when I didn’t feel like I belonged or I fit into places. And a lot of this stemmed from usually being the only person of color in that practice. I’m biracial, my mom is black, and my father’s Colombian. So I used to struggle on both sides when I would see our inability to engage with our clients because we didn’t speak the language. And I would try my best to speak as fluent in Spanish as I can, but also just seeing the disconnect in how we engage with our clients of color and wanting to do more. And so my goal with Blendvet was to create that opportunity so that we could learn how to be better together, but also be better for our clients.
And when I started talking about Blendvet more and more and more, my door opened more in veterinary students. Academia asked me to come and talk more about it, and I started to hear more from the vet students that these were topics that weren’t discussed in vet school, and this was information they wanted. These were experiences that they had already witnessed, either from their experience hours getting into vet school or as they were navigating clinical years. And in my mind, when I created Blendvet, I knew that I wanted to go backwards into vet school, but I needed to stay in the lane that I had been in for 17 years, which was practicing medicine.
And so I started there, but when the vet school doors opened, I jumped in there. And now we’ve started to do training within certain veterinary schools, whether it be their faculty training or the veterinary students themselves through lectures. And we are also still proceeding with our hospital certification program as well, which is what we’re starting this quarter. We’re going to be working with Rarebreed Veterinary Partners, and I’m really excited. We start next month. So when you say I’m busy, I’m like, “Ugh, that’s an understatement,” because it’s like I am… it’s surreal because this is what I’ve wanted and it’s happening in real time. And I’m excited. I’m excited for what it can bring. And then the pipeline was just literally the cherry on top. That pipeline event was everything.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, so you just get me so excited but also tired. You get me excited and tired. Because-

Dr. Niccole Bruno:
I’m tired. Yes.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, of course you are. You’re working across… It’s a massive problem. It’s a massive problem. And you have integrated yourself into all these different places and just in our short conversation, you can already see how you’re putting the pieces together, which is… this is why I think you’re so fascinating and I’m such a big fan of what you’re doing. But you’re like, “Okay, well obviously we start at the pipeline, and we talk about bringing people in. And then we need to attract these people, and we need to retain these people, and we need to make sure these people succeed and grow. So we’re starting to figure out how do we adapt culture that we have, which is a White culture. How do we adapt that so that it is inclusive and people can feel comfortable and they want to be a part of the culture that we have.”
And so you’re laying down all of these pieces and it’s really this ecosystem of how the individual pieces clicked together and work. But you’re clearly thought about this a lot as far as where are the biggest priorities and what needs to happen in order to build long-term success. And so I love how you think. I love how strategic you are about this and I love the fact that you’re very action oriented. And so it doesn’t surprise me at all that you’re working with students and that they really want to hear what you have to have to say.

Dr. Niccole Bruno:
Yeah, it’s been very, very rewarding working with the students. They’re a reminder, right? Of what we want.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Aren’t they wonderful?

Dr. Niccole Bruno:
Yeah. Yeah, they are.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Hey guys, I just want to hop in really quick and give a quick plug. The Uncharted Veterinary Conferences coming in April. Guys, I founded the Uncharted Veterinary Conference in 2017. It is one of a kind conference. It is all about business. It is about internal communications working effectively inside your practice if you’re a leader, that means you can be a medical director. It means you can be an associate vet who really wants to work well with your technicians. It means you can be a head technician, a head CSR. You can be a practice owner, practice manager, multi-site manager, multi-site medical director. We work with a lot of those people. This is all about building systems, setting expectations to work effectively with your people. Guys, Uncharted is a pure mentorship conference. That means that we come together and there is a lot of discussion. We create a significant percentage of the schedule, the agenda at the event, which means we are going to talk about the things that you are interested in.
It is, as I said, business communication focused, but a lot of freedom inside that to make sure that you get to talk about what you want to talk about. We really prioritize people being able to have one-on-one conversations to pick people’s brains, to get advice from people who have wrestled with the problems that they are currently wrestled with. We make all that stuff happen. If you want to come to a conference where you do not sit and get lectured at, but you work on your own practice, your own challenges, your own growth and development, that’s what Uncharted is. Take a chance, give us a look, come and check it out. It is in April. I’ll put a link in the show notes for registration, ask anybody who’s been, it’s something special. All right, let’s get back into this episode.
The vet students are always… I get so energized when I work with vet students because they’re excited about the profession. They see these endless possibilities and they’re ready to go and they want to change the world and change their profession. And I always leave the vet school so fired up because they’re inspiring in a fresh eyed look at what we’re doing, and they just remind you how awesome our profession is. So can you talk a little bit about this? I want to hear more about the certification. So you said, we talk about having all rules in the hospital trained in DEI. Talk to me about what that looks like. So if a practice owner said to you, “Hey, you know what? I’m interested in this. Help me understand what my people would learn.” What is valuable knowledge for them even look like? Because most of us, we’ve never had anything like this. We don’t really know what that is. So can you start to help me see that picture?

Dr. Niccole Bruno:
Sure can. So first thing that I felt was really, really important was having it on an LMS where we had an opportunity to take it at our own pace because we’re busy, and so we can’t really… it’s really hard to collaborate, get everybody in the hospital together at the same time, it’s like… I remember having luncheon learns and right when the rep is about to start, you have that emergency come in or the phone call. So it’s really hard to have that timed learning opportunity. So they will be asynchronous modules through our LMS. But before that, we have our hospitals take our Blendvet culture assessment and we have developed an art to what we think would be the right way to assess culture and from a hospital’s perspective, but any workplace actually. And then once we get the culture assessment, then we meet with the leadership team and we present the results and we create a workshop of like, “This is some areas that we feel need to be focused on.”
We really need to emphasize training. And it might be we need to be better at knowing what our biases are. We may need to look at allyship a little bit better. So that’s a way that we can get live training, right? And then just get that connection with them, understand maybe stories or situations that have happened to really feel like they’re not in this alone. And then afterwards we introduce the staff, and with now the leadership knowing their role in supporting their staff through their LMS, and they will go through modules under each element or value of blend. So I didn’t really mention what Blend stood for, it’s not an acronym, but the Blend itself stands for the values of what I feel create a great hospital culture and that’s one of the inclusivity. So B, stands for building relationships. So how do we build these relationships with our team, realizing communication looks different, how do we lead?
So leading with empathy, with vulnerability, which I felt was very, very important, especially during the pandemic. It was a skill that not every leader had and it definitely drove the difference in how cultures responded or how our staff responded. Education and equity are the ease. So understanding that we need to create equitable environments, but also we need to constantly seek education. It’s not a one and done. DEI is constantly evolving. And so understanding that this is an opportunity to take that first step into the journey of DEI. N, stands for navigating the unknown. So those are the things that everybody just wants to avoid. And unfortunately those are the things that really start the toxicity in a hospital culture, the things that we avoid. So how do we handle difficult conversations? How do we handle when current events are going on and they’re affecting groups of people that we don’t even know how to start having those conversations.
But if there’s a foundation of trust, if we’ve had that relationship, it’s easier to have those conversations. And then D stands for diversity, inclusion and belonging. It’s understanding that all of those pieces is what helps not only create an environment where we feel safe to come to work, but we perform better, we thrive better, we get things done faster together. And so all of those elements have modules. So all the values have modules underneath them. And what I’ve been doing over the last two years is really identifying people in the industry that are passionate about DEI, but speak to a certain topic related to those modules. So we have the great Mia Carey that talks about allyship and she’s the CEO of PrideVMC. So she really lays the foundation of what that looks like as an ally. But we also have people of the LGBTQ plus community talking about what it’s been like to be in their shoes.
One of a module that went really well in our academic launch was our module with Christina Wetzel. And she spoke about what it’s been like to be deaf in our profession, and not only as a technician, but now as a veterinary student and ultimately what it will be like as a veterinarian. And so what I’ve found is that when we need to learn about DEI. Yes, the definitions matter but how they make people feel, the application part, the lived experiences, that’s what you don’t get from reading in a textbook, or how does this apply to my life and how can we make it better so that we don’t have others in our hospitals or as our clients feel this way? And so when I speak, I usually lean on experiences that I’ve had happen to me where I’ve been marginalized or a client didn’t want me to do surgery and what that felt like, but also put it back on what should leadership have done in this moment?
What should we as a hospital have done or had in place so that our colleague didn’t feel marginalized, or that we wouldn’t allow this client to come back through our door again? Or what do we have in place so these clients know this is not the way to behave because we are not going to tolerate it. These are all the things that my hope is Blend will have people start thinking about. My goal is not to tell you how to run your hospital, but it’s to give you that framework, those bones, so that you create your blueprint of like, “This is the communities that we work with. This is what we don’t have. We need to hire to fill in that gap so that there are no language barriers.” So that’s the purpose of Blend. So they go through these modules. There’s reflective activities, there’s opportunities for the hospital to partner with Blend to have a facilitated conversation to really tie in the module together.
And then to become certified, we ask hospitals to do some community service, which is why the pipeline events really are helpful for me to let them see how we can do that very easily. But also internally, what are you going to do in your hospital to make it better for your staff, for your clients that come into your doors? And that can be what they deem is the next best step for them, by putting that all together and really making a commitment to that educational process and that evolution and then actually creating the actionable step, because… You’re correct in that, I’m very action oriented. Doing-

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I love it.

Dr. Niccole Bruno:
… that is what makes you a more of a Blend certified hospital and because you’re taking the next step.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, as you lay this out, the commitment to service. And you and I talked about that when we first met, and you had mentioned about service and how it fit into your dream for Blend as well. And we start with this conversation in the pipeline and then we go with it, and we talked about service and then how that feeds back into this pipeline and go, “God, Niccole, you’ve built this beautiful thing.” It makes sense and it works. And I’m just… Anyway, I keep saying how impressed I am. Well, it’s-

Dr. Niccole Bruno:
Thank you. I appreciate it.

Dr. Andy Roark:
So let me ask you this. So we’ve already sprawled across every aspect of practice from recruiting at the undergraduate and pre undergraduate levels all the way up to practice leadership. And it’s like, this is a broad swath here. So it’s clear that you think it at a high level and you think about the profession as a whole. If you were queen of veterinary medicine for a day, what would you be your worst, the profession? So like a magic wand and say, what would you like to see? How… Again, magic wand in hand, how would you love to see our profession mobilize in order to increase diversity, equity, and inclusion? Are there specific steps or areas that you say, I would love for us to focus on these areas or to see these types of actions? What would that look like?

Dr. Niccole Bruno:
I think it’s a combination of the training part of wanting to be better for who we are serving right now. But I also think it’s a part of understanding that you have to give back. And I know that it’s hard for us sometimes because we are very… we’re pet centric, right? We are veterinarians, we want to take care of the animals, but the animals belong to the people. And if the people aren’t on board in connecting with us or understanding the health concerns of the patient, we’re not getting the compliance and the pet is not getting better. So it’s a whole circle of life, so to speak. For me, I want my colleagues to, again, like I said, I’m not trying to tell them what to do, but I want to give them opportunities to fit in with what makes sense.
What’s your niche? Some people are really great with working with younger kids. There are programs that exist for K through four. There’s programs for junior high school age. There’s programs for high school. Challenge your veterinary schools of what are we doing to improve pipeline? Do we have a program in place? How can I help? Pawsibilities. You mentioned I’m on the advisory board. It’s a great opportunity for people that may not have the time to show up during the day, but it’s a way to virtually support a student that might want to enter it. I think that if could wave my magic wand, it would be to ignite in all of my colleagues an opportunity to do bee of service, not just for what we do daily, but to think about the pipeline and think about the future of our profession.
And I know… And it’s like I said, it looks differently for different people depending on their skillset. Mine is definitely pipeline development. My sister, just to throw her out there, she is very passionate about access to care. That’s been her pathway into vet med with the ASPCA. And so I tell her all the time, “When you’re finished with your master’s program, come on down and let’s create an access to care event for…” But the point is that we all have an opportunity to step into that service mindset and give back. And I think that that’s ultimately what I would do if I was queen of vet med for the day.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I love it. Yeah. Tell me a little bit more about Pawsibilities. It’s not a group I know a whole a lot about.

Dr. Niccole Bruno:
Oh, yeah. Well you should totally have Dr. Marcano on. But Valerie Marcano is someone that I feel like we probably are sisters on vet. But we have a lot of… She actually knows my sisters, so we call ourselves sisters. But she went to Cornell for undergrad and went to Georgia and during the… they had a hackathon at Georgia and her husband, who was the co-founder for Pawsibilities, they pitched a virtual platform opportunity for underrepresented students to learn about veterinary medicine and all of the ways to support them through pipeline development. So it’s an opportunity, if you wanted to join Pawsibilities, you could go to pawsibilitiesvetmed.com, and there’s a way that you can sign up as a mentor or you can be a mentee. But either way, you would be having to take a… about an hour and a half, course in what is the role of a mentor, what is the role of a mentee, what are barriers that students that are underrepresented may encounter?
So you have a little bit more knowledge base about it. And then once you’ve passed the test and you’re in, it’s almost like another social media group where you can see what other students… they can ask questions. There might be somebody in Alaska saying, “I really want to do marine biology. How do I start?” And somebody that is in that industry can come in and counsel them offline, on an email or they can connect with that person and really start a relationship that consists of a mentoring mentee type of relationship. So it’s allowed me… sometimes I’ve had students reach out to me to ask me about things knowing that I’m from New York, what opportunities or what hospitals did you shadow at? And sometimes I’m like, “Well, you know what? I have a sister who’s a vet that lives in New York, so I can connect you with her.”
So sometimes I am a connector and sometimes I’m giving the advice. But especially during the pandemic where people couldn’t get experience hours at hospitals, it was a way to support students that really didn’t know where to start. They were isolated from school, they didn’t know what to do. So it was a way for us. And Pawsibilities does sometimes monthly workshops to help students with the application of vet school, or just scholarship opportunities. So either way, it’s just a way for us to give back if we don’t have the time as far as showing up at an event. But we can do it off hours because you can always answer an email at any time.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh yeah, that’s great. Where can people find more about you? Where can they more learn more about BlendVet?

Dr. Niccole Bruno:
So definitely head to my website, www.blend.vet. We have so many opportunities for you to learn more about the program, but also just the resources that I have held during my journey into this DEI space of what’s helped me, certain books, certain podcasts. So it’s a way that we’ve just tried to condense that information. And if anyone is interested in learning more about the hospital certification program or just outside speaking events, we can always sign up on our wait list and then somebody will get back to you. But we are hoping to continue our work showing up at conferences and providing some DEI content there. So that’s another way to meet us as well.

Dr. Andy Roark:
That’s fantastic. Dr. Niccole Bruno, thank you so much for being here. Thanks for all the work that you are doing in our profession. I am so glad I got to meet you and talked with you. I can’t wait to get to talk with you more in the future. Guys, thanks for tuning in today.

Dr. Niccole Bruno:
Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And that is what I got for you guys. I hope you enjoyed it. I hope you got something out of it. Thanks a lot to Dr. Bruno for being here. I’ll put a link to blend.vet down in the show notes. You guys can check that out. As always, if you liked it, if you got something out of this episode, please leave me an honest review wherever you get podcasts or share it with your friends, or you just want to try to get the word out and help people find the work that we’re doing here on The Cone of Shame. Anyway, guys, take care of yourselves. Be well. I’ll talk to you later on.

The days of veterinarians owning the majority of veterinary practices seem to be permanently behind us. Does this mean that practice ownership by veterinary healthcare providers is coming to an end? Economist Dr. Matthew Salois joins the podcast to discuss the future of ownership and equity in veterinary medicine.

You can also listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, Soundcloud, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts!

LINKS

Veterinary Study Groups: https://www.veterinarystudygroups.com/

Uncharted Veterinary Conference: https://unchartedvet.com/upcoming-events/

Dr. Andy Roark Exam Room Communication Tool Box Course: https://drandyroark.com/on-demand-staff-training/

Dr. Andy Roark Swag: drandyroark.com/shop

All Links: linktr.ee/DrAndyRoark

ABOUT OUR GUEST

Matthew Salois, PhD is currently the President of the Veterinary Study Groups, Inc. (VSG), where he is responsible for enhancing the economic and cultural success of more than 1,800 veterinary member practices.

Most recently, Matt was the chief economist and head of the veterinary economics division at the AVMA between 2018 and 2022, where he applied his skills in economics, business, and communication to support the daily lives of veterinarians.

From 2014 to 2018, he served as director of global scientific affairs and policy at Elanco Animal Health, supervising a team of scientists in veterinary medicine, human medicine, animal welfare, economics and sustainability. His group devised and executed scientific engagement strategy, and built collaborative partnerships with universities, non-profit associations and scientific societies.

Matt is also an adjunct professor of applied economics at the University of Florida, where he previously taught and advised graduate and undergraduate students. He earned his Ph.D. in Applied Economics from the University of Florida and holds an M.A. in Economics and a B.S. in Health Services Administration from the University of Central Florida.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Welcome everybody to the Cone of Shame Veterinary Podcast. I am your host, Dr. Andy Roark. Guys, I am back with my friend the economist, Matt Salois. We are talking about practice ownership. We are talking about equity for veterinarians and vet professionals. What is possible in this modern world of corporatization where there’s private equity groups buying up practices, we have corporate practices, we have a wide variety of opportunities for ownership. What do we need to know? How does this work? How does it look in the future? Is the old style of practice ownership dead and gone? Is private equity going to stick around the way that it has or is that a passing phase? Guys, we unpack all this stuff. Let’s get into this episode.

Kelsey Beth Carpenter:
(singing) This is your show. We’re glad you’re here. We want to help you in your veterinary career. Welcome to The Cone of Shame with Dr. Andy Roark.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Matt Salois. Thanks for being here again.

Dr. Matthew Salois:
Hey, great to be here. Thank you.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I always appreciate your time. So you’ve been on the podcast a number of times. For those who don’t know, you are a PhD economist, you are the president of the Veterinary Study Groups. You work with the VMG Groups, the Vet Management Groups quite a bit. And you have been a guest on this podcast at least three times now.

Dr. Matthew Salois:
Awesome.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Best you believe it. I don’t know how big an accolade that is.

Dr. Matthew Salois:
No, it’s a big one.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Probably gets pretty low on the CV, but-

Dr. Matthew Salois:
No, really great to be here. Weird conversations.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh, I always do. There’s just a number of things I’ve been really interested in recently and you’re sort of in a position to help me look at it outside the box and to see what’s possible. And so, one of the things to you, I’ve always been interested in practice ownership. One of the things that really attracted me to vet medicine was this idea that you could captain your own ship. I think it was really, my father was a physician, but he had his own little surgery center that was just him and two nurses and just small town in North Carolina and that’s what he did. And I think there’s something beautiful about that. And so that type of autonomy I think has always been really interesting and really, I don’t know, I had a romantic view of it I guess.
And then the other part of it is when we talk about, I look a lot at student debt for veterinarians and the whole time that I was coming up, student debt was getting larger. A lot of people were going, “Oh, well there’s an easy way out of this and it’s practice ownership.” And I always thought that was a little bit of mischaracterization of the truth, but I got the concept of it.
And so now I’m looking at increased corporatization in vet medicine. What I wanted to do was talk to you a little bit about how that changes this independent business owner landscape and is practice purchase or practice ownership in going forward, how viable is that going to be? Is it going to be widespread? I’m starting to hear a lot more about different models where there is equity inside of corporate practices, things like that. Those are the conversations I want to have today is I kind of want to understand the landscape for owning equity in a vet practice going forward. And so if you could start off, can you start us at a 10,000-foot level and say, tell me the story of practice ownership, Matt, just get me started on where we’ve been and where we’re going.

Dr. Matthew Salois:
Yeah, really happy to. I’m really excited we get to have this conversation. It’s a deep passion for me, practice ownership in large part why I’m with VMG today. It’s such a tremendous opportunity to, I think, enhance the wellbeing of yourself as a practice owner and more importantly to be put into a position where you can influence so much that happens within the practice. So much of our conversations talks about veterinarian wellbeing and I don’t know if you’ve ever been in this position, Andy, around, oh, I wish the boss would do this. I wish the boss would do that.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh yeah.

Dr. Matthew Salois:
You’re in that position. You can make those changes that you so desperately crave.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I will turn it back around, too, and say it’s funny. Later in life I learned that when you’re the boss, you say things like, “Ah, I wish the staff would do this. I wish the doctors would…” It never ends. I always thought when I’m the boss, it’ll be easy. It’s like, no, it’s not easy.

Dr. Matthew Salois:
No, it’s harder, but at least you’ve got autonomy there or more or less, you’re always coupled to somebody.

Dr. Andy Roark:
That’s true.

Dr. Matthew Salois:
In consolidation, corporatization, it’s definitely changing the landscape. And I will say that I think there’s plenty of room for every type of practice, for every size, every aspect of how you define ownership in this profession. The number of veterinary practices continues to grow. Yes, the number of practices that are corporate continue to grow too, but so does the total number of practices that are here parallel with population increases of pets and demand for veterinary care. It’s still such a tremendous runway of opportunity for someone aspiring to be a practice owner.
And I think we need to do a better job as a profession building those aspirations. And I think building transparency and awareness around what it really means to be a practice owner, what it takes, what it involves, as well as the benefits that it imparts. I mean, you said it, your father was the captain of his ship. And I don’t know if this was your father’s story. I don’t know if you had these experiences with him before he owned his own practice and life after he owned his own practice. If you could share if there was a big change in his overall wellbeing and happiness or not. But I see it in veterinarians that become practice owners. It’s amazing.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Okay, so let’s unpack that a little bit because there’s… Okay, so first of all, I still love the idea of being a business owner. One of the greatest things that I aspire to in my life is to create a wonderful workplace for other people. That just means a lot to me. I really want to create a great place for others to work in. And I think it’s a responsibility, but it’s also a passion project and it’s a worthy challenge. And then also, I like the autonomy of making this into the image that I want it to be. Business ownership has been a wonderful challenge that I’ve been very glad that I took on.
At the same time, it is a challenge. I had a guest on a while back and then I had another guest on who argued with the first guest. And the reason was, and I’m trying to remember where the original statistic came from, but basically we were going over some data on burnout and the data that was presented said that the practice owners were less likely to burn out than other professionals. And so, one of my later guests said, “I heard that on the podcast and I thought, that can’t be true.” So he contacted the first guest and what was told was the way that burnout is calculated is your plan is planning to leave the job. So practice owners didn’t burn out, because they didn’t plan to leave the job because the barriers to exit were much higher. And so anyway, I think that that’s an interesting sort of way to talk about does practice ownership make people happier? Are there these psychological benefits? What’s baked into those numbers?

Dr. Matthew Salois:
Well, it can and it can also make your life miserable as can any decision that you embark on in life. But I don’t know, I have to go back to that podcast episode. I can speak to data at the AVMA, because I helped collect and analyze that data years ago when I was with the AVMA around wellbeing metrics for associates versus practice owners. And it was very clear that wellbeing in terms of lower burnout, higher levels of compassion satisfaction, it was clear in practice owners and it wasn’t about whether or not they were wanting to leave the profession. We compiled those metrics based on the professional quality of life, surveyed the pro qual…
And so lots goes into that, a number of different variables and indicators there. And what we always saw, and the AVMA still continues to see over time, is that practice owners have lower burnout and higher overall levels of wellbeing. I kind of chalk it up again to this captain of your ship and in control of your own destiny kind of thing. Now it doesn’t mean that’s always going to be the case, right?

Dr. Andy Roark:
Sure.

Dr. Matthew Salois:
You could be in a very difficult situation as a practice owner and be very miserable and maybe want completely out of it. I think like all things, it depends on the actions that you take, the people that you work with and the culture that you create within your business. I think it revolves around how that looks.

Dr. Andy Roark:
It’s funny. I think that sort of tracks with my experience. Definitely there’s a lot more stress on your shoulders of making payroll and you carry a lot of responsibility. I guess I can definitely buy into the idea that autonomy and the ability to impact your surroundings at a much greater level than other people who work in the practice are. I can definitely see that being something that would keep people in business ownership and that could increase overall satisfaction.
I heard a story not long ago and it was heartbreaking. So one of my friends was going to buy the veterinary practice that she worked in and she’s an associate vet and she saved up for three years to be able to get the down payment that she needed to buy this practice. You can probably see where this is going. So then it was time to do the evaluation on the practice, and they did, and her numbers worked out, but there were corporate buyers who were also interested in the practice and it sort of came at around the same time that she was going to try to make this purchase. And they came through and offered multiples well above what she was able to pay. It was something like, let’s say the practice was valued at $2 million and they came in, they were like, “We’ll give you 3 million.” And the owner said to my friend, “Can you match that?” And my friend was like, “No, I can’t. The bank won’t loan me that much money.”
And so the practice was sold to this other group and there’s not a villain in this story. I really don’t, I don’t think any of us can look at a veterinarian trying to retire and say, “Well, you should have left a million dollars on the table.” I would’ve been heartbroken just like my friend was. And I don’t think that she was wrong, and I don’t blame her if she feels resentful. But I hear these types of stories. So, Matt, can you comment on some of the challenges of purchasing a practice today, of coming into practice ownership in the modern era?

Dr. Matthew Salois:
Yeah. I mean, and you name probably the biggest one there, which are what seem to be absurdly large multipliers that no individual average human being can compete with, especially when you’re looking at private equity groups with deep pockets that have seemingly endless cash flow to pour into veterinary medicine. I think that definitely creates some frictions and difficulties. I think our current environment around inflation and whether or not we are in or will soon be in a recession may soften what we’re seeing there in terms of consolidation and multipliers.
But it pains me to hear stories like that, and yet it shouldn’t be a deterrent either. It didn’t work out in that instance. So try smaller, try buying into a different practice, something that doesn’t have quite the multipliers on it. And you’re right, you mentioned she was saving up for a few years. I mean, it’s definitely a long-run plan. This isn’t something you can think about wanting to do, and then two years later you do it. And this is why I think we need to talk more about it and instill this in the schools, in the program, so that you can be on, at a minimum, a five-year plan post graduation so that you can start preparing the saving, looking at loan options. The opportunities are out there.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. So I want to step back here for a second. Can you define the term private equity? I know we throw that term around a lot. I don’t know how many people know exactly what that means when we say, “Oh, private equity has deep pockets.” Translate that for me if you don’t mind.

Dr. Matthew Salois:
Loosely, private equity being a collection of investors, pulling their money together and then investing in different areas where they’ll buy up assets, they’ll potentially restructure those assets, invest in those assets, build efficiencies, create more profit from them, and then sell those assets at a gain. I mean, that’s basically what private equity is trying to do. They’re not generally in the long run. They’re here to come in, make an investment, and generate a return within a three to 10-year time horizon and even 10 years might be pushing it. And that’s basically it.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Hey, guys, I just want to hop in really quick and give a quick plug. The Uncharted Veterinary Conference is coming in April. Guys, I founded the Uncharted Veterinary Conference in 2017. It is a one-of-a-kind conference. It is all about business. It is about internal communications working effectively inside your practice. If you’re a leader, that means you can be a medical director. It means you can be an associate vet who really wants to work well with your technicians. It means you can be a head technician, a head CSR, you can be a practice owner, a practice manager, multi-site manager, multi-site medical director. We work with a lot of those people. It’s just all about building systems, setting expectations to work effectively with your people.
Guys, Uncharted is a pure mentorship conference. That means that we come together and there is a lot of discussion. We create a significant percentage of the schedule, the agenda at the event, which means we’re going to talk about the things that you are interested in. It is always, as I said, business communication focused, but lots of freedom inside that to make sure that you get to talk about what you want to talk about. We really prioritize people being able to have one-on-one conversations to pick people’s brains, to get advice from people who have wrestled with the problems that they are currently wrestled with. We make all that stuff happen. If you want to come to a conference where you do not sit and get lectured at, but you work on your own practice, your own challenges, your own growth and development, that’s what Uncharted is. Take a chance, give us a look. Come and check it out. It is in April. I’ll put a link in the show notes for registration. Ask anybody who’s been, it’s something special. All right, let’s get back into this episode.
What do you see as the role in private equity going forward? So we saw private equity coming in and spending a lot of money in the last couple of years. Is that going to continue as you look into your crystal ball? Are we going to continue to see this type of investment? Is this sort of a short-term play? Does this create opportunities for practice ownership among veterinary professionals in interesting ways later on?

Dr. Matthew Salois:
Yeah. I think veterinary medicine will always be, and has been for quite a while, a very attractive place for private investors, equity groups to invest in, particularly because, one, there’s stable growth. We continue to see the number of pets grow and demand for veterinary care grow. It’s also very recession resilient, not recession proof. I don’t think any market or industry really is, but certainly resilient. And so in periods of economic downturn, sluggishness, it’s a good place to invest in because you can maintain steady cash flows or at least mitigate losses that you would’ve in other industries and other areas like travel, tourism, entertainment, those things really take a nose dive during those types of economic environments.
But I think we will see some slowing down here in large part just tied to what’s happening in our economy. The realm of cheap money is done, negative and zero interest rates, those days are over and the money’s more expensive now because of inflation and what we’re seeing happening there. And so it’s becoming more expensive to invest. So I think that’s going to naturally slow things down a bit. I also think eventually, whether it’s next year or a few years from now, we’re going to see some slowing down because the top oil has been mined here. So there’s definitely a sweet spot that a lot of private investors are looking for medium-sized practices that have at least two to three doctors that they can grow into something more and then sell at a profit, at a gain there. That’s been happening for years. And so it’s getting more difficult to find those practices. Still plenty of them out there, but obviously more of them have come under some type of private equity umbrella over the last few years.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Is there opportunities with private equity umbrellas? If the idea is to turn these over for profit, does that create opportunities for independent practice purchase later on, or are those practices… I know the idea is obviously to increase revenue, so they may be very well priced outside of an independent professional’s purchasing price forever, but talk to me a little bit about that.

Dr. Matthew Salois:
Yeah, absolutely. I’ll add here, when we look at what we call corporate practices, which I never really liked that phrase because it’s just very misleading. I mean, really the only true corporate practices out there are the Mars practices. They’re the only company that’s truly incorporated under the eyes of business law. The others are under private equity umbrellas, and they operate very differently than an incorporated business because they’re managed by investors there.
And here, touching on what you just asked, opportunities to hold equity into that company are becoming more and more common. And it’s changing, I think the nature of what we think of as ownership. Yes, it is still and always will be 100% independently-owned business. That’s still very much a part of veterinary medicine. And now we have this new landscape of ownership where you can maintain equity ownership into the practice or more increasingly into the parent company that’s invested in that practice. And that’s important to recognize, because it’s still under the umbrella of ownership and what happens in the future is, yes… So inevitably most of these investors will be looking to sell. So there may be opportunities to buy those practices back. Some of these may incorporate and just become incorporated in true companies there selling to an outside agency that’s interested in that. The landscape’s going to continue to change. That’s clear.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Can you give me some examples of what these types of equity programs would look like? So when we talk about having equity inside of a larger corporation, everything from, you said equity in an individual practice to the larger companies. Give me kind of a menu, if you will, of what these different options look like?

Dr. Matthew Salois:
Yeah, I mean, it’s almost like the sky is the limit here. I’ve seen many different types of structures in terms of how they’re designed, and I think it continues to evolve and that’s going to continue unravel. I mean, I think sort of the meat and potatoes of it, the 101 version of this is the owner sells to a private equity group, and that person maintains anywhere from a five to maybe 15% equity stake into that company, into that organization. And so based on earnings, at the end of every year, they receive equity value based on that.
More and more what I’m seeing is that that’s not just singled out to the owner that sold. I’m seeing equity for professionals all across. And some are offering equity ownership into the whole staff, having a percentage stake in the earnings of the company as well. And I think we’ll probably see that become more common because it’s an important, obviously, income stream for people. It’s definitely an incentive to recruit and retain people that other businesses and practices may not be offering. So it’s going to help you compete for talent there. But it can be designed any number of different ways, but ultimately it’s based on the earnings of the company. And then based on that you receive either a check or shares that can be paid out once you’re vested, so to speak.

Dr. Andy Roark:
It totally makes sense. I’ve seen this a number of times with associate doctors. Because if you buy a practice and all the doctors leave, what have you bought in some ways? I’ve definitely seen that and it definitely makes sense to me for a retention standpoint. So when we’re talking about equity like this, the idea, like you said, is you would have ownership of either this individual practice or this larger entity, and then you would either get a check, like a disbursement of funds, or you would convert to more ownership. And so I guess the ultimate idea is this is your long-term investment and later on at some point you’ll be able to convert this as you sort of cash out your investment, correct?

Dr. Matthew Salois:
That’s right, yes.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Are there other upsides to these types of deals? Are there things that people really like about them?

Dr. Matthew Salois:
Well, I think it keeps them connected. So you think about an owner who’s selling and they’ve spent years building this practice, it could be hard to let go of that. And maybe some just want that, right? Like, “I’m done. I’m out.” Go buy a yacht and sail or whatever, and that’s fine. But for many, they want to stay connected. They’ve built something and they want to continue to see it grow and succeed and not necessarily leave the people that they’ve built this with behind.
So I think the biggest benefit to a structure like this is that it keeps them connected. And the investors gain from this too, because they don’t necessarily want a complete vacuum of institutional knowledge here. They’re not in the business of running practices, they’re in the businesses of helping them grow and then sell them for a profit. They’ll want the right people in place to help drive that mission forward. And oftentimes that involves keeping the people that have built this on the ground so that they can propel it to the next level.

Dr. Andy Roark:
That makes sense. Are there downfalls, pitfalls, downsides to these types of deals that you see? Is there any small print problems that surface later on?

Dr. Matthew Salois:
Yeah. I think some of the downsides to the investors can be when they find themselves suddenly having to manage a practice and they know nothing about that business. That can be challenging, particularly in a tepid economic climate like we’re in where maybe it’s just the growth and demand wasn’t what you thought it was. So you need to buckle down a little bit. But I think the downsides from the veterinarian who’s in this is decision-making, if that’s impacted. So obviously the investors are the majority here. Is everything top down?
And I think that’s where these practices run a very wide distribution. And why I say the corporate label is so unfair, because I think it creates this thought process of corporate telling the practice everything, medical or nonmedical. And I think that’s grossly unfair because there are so many that support and empower local level decision-making within their practices. They have their HR guidelines and they have their processes and procedures on a number of things, but they empower professionals, the veterinarian to make the medically best decisions to use what they feel is the best medicine. And so if there was a downside there for them, it’s the lack of that empowerment. But I’ll say there are so many out there that support that type of empowerment, which is encouraging.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Matt, if you had a young veterinarian who came to you and he or she expressed interest in practice ownership and they said, “This is something I’ve always look forward to. I like the autonomy. I like the idea of creating a culture and really having my hands in it and I want to work on something that I feel tied to or feel that I’m really able to put myself into.” How would you advise that person if they said, “I don’t know how to get started, I don’t even know what my options are.” Can you lay out a basic advisement strategy you’d give?

Dr. Matthew Salois:
Yeah, and here’s where we’re talking to a financial advisor would be wonderful, I think first and foremost, and having those conversations. And if you haven’t had one on your podcast, that would probably be a awesome next one to do. I’d say great, start now. You can always save for something without knowing exactly what you’re saving for. Just start saving, that’s important. And then be transparent, talk to the owner, let them know that this is what you’re thinking of and try to find out if the owner’s even interested in selling to you or to any veterinarian for that matter. And you can get hopefully the cards out on the table now. Is there a future? I mean, there could always be that situation like you started with the young veterinarian friend that you mentioned where you think you’re going to, but the sale doesn’t work out.
But either way, you can identify with your current owner if they’re interested in that, and then you maybe can work towards a plan to do that in the next several years. And if not, you can start looking for other opportunities to buy into practices. And you don’t necessarily have to buy 100% outright. So look for those opportunities where you could co-buy into a practice with another doctor or a number of other doctors there where you’re co-owning that practice together. Certainly in some ways that’s more complicated, but it softens the blow in terms of what you need in order to buy into that practice.
And then talk to owners, understand their history and their journey, what it’s taken, what they find as the biggest challenges, what they find most worthwhile and rewarding about it, and trying to get into that position of understanding the business more and more of veterinary medicine. I think that’s the important thing and very limited is given in the schools. This is really something that you learn along the way, right or wrong. And so taking those opportunities to the extent that you can with your current owner and others to build that up, build that skillset up over time.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Are there any specific resources that you really like for people to look out to, didactically if they said, “What should I read?” Do you have favorite resources?

Dr. Matthew Salois:
Well, I think being a student of leadership never hurts anybody. I think learning more around leading people, and I think that’s the biggest challenge for any and every owner, they will tell you. People are delightfully complicated and getting people to work together in a way that brings together engagement and a positive work, you’ve got to cultivate that. That doesn’t usually happen on its own. And so I think learning leadership is important. You can read books and you can attend webinars and things, but I think there’s no better study for that than working under a great leader. If you look at your leadership and you’re just not happy, well, maybe you need to find another place where you can really learn what good leadership looks like.
And then understanding practical business, how to manage a profit and loss statement, a P&L, I mean that’s definitely a skillset. And understand the nature of strategy is really important around, if you want to grow, what are the steps taken to support that growth, and then how do you execute on that? That’s a learning skill. And you can get a degree and you can get an MBA, but that doesn’t mean you’re going to be good at strategy and execution. And so looking at opportunities to reinforce that will be an important avenue of opportunity.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, that totally makes sense. Matt, thank you so much for being here. Where can people learn more about Veterinary Study Groups? Where can they find you online?

Dr. Matthew Salois:
Yeah, at our website, veterinarystudygroups.com. Learn more about our mission and vision and how we support practice owners in the profession. And you can find me on LinkedIn where I occasionally post about data and the economy and sometimes I’m funny with a dad joke here and there.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Awesome. I’ll put links into the show notes. Guys, take care of yourselves. Be well everybody. Thanks for tuning in.

Dr. Matthew Salois:
Thanks so much.

Dr. Andy Roark:
And that is our show, guys. That’s what I got for you. I hope you enjoy it. I hope you took something away from it. I hope it was interesting. As always, I’d love it if you’d leave me an honest review on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. It lets other people know about the show so they can find it and check us out. Anyway, gang, take care of yourselves. Be well. I’ll talk to you later. Bye.