
Dr. Mary Gardner, DVM, co-founder of Lap of Love, joins Dr. Andy Roark to talk about one of the most emotional parts of veterinary medicine—helping pet owners process end-of-life decisions. Before you brace for a downer, take a breath. This episode is anything but heavy. With laughter, warmth, and a whole lot of heart, Mary brings her signature optimism to a conversation that every vet team will relate to. They dive into the guilt pet owners feel about getting a new pet, the emotional signs that often go unnoticed, and how to support clients in the thick of grief. From navigating spiritual beliefs to choosing the right language in the exam room, this episode is full of insights, compassion, and some seriously good one-liners. You’ll leave with a better understanding of how to guide families through goodbye, how to spot unspoken pain, and why it’s okay to bring some joy into hard moments.
You can also listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts!
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ABOUT OUR GUEST
There is nothing better to Dr. Gardner than a dog with a grey muzzle or skinny old cat! Her professional goal is to increase awareness and medical care for the geriatric veterinary patient and to help make the final life stage to be as peaceful as possible, surrounded with dignity and support for all involved.
A University of Florida graduate (AND ANDY’S CLASSMATE!), she discovered her niche in end-of-life care and is the co-founder and CIO of Lap of Love which has over 350 veterinarians around the country dedicated to veterinary hospice and euthanasia in the home.
Dr. Gardner is co-author of the textbook “The Treatment and Care of the Veterinary Patient”, co-author of a children’s activity book focused on saying goodbye to a dog called “Forever Friend”, and the author of a book dedicated to pet owners “It’s Never Long Enough: A practical guide to caring for your geriatric dog”. Dr. Gardner also won VMX Small Animal Speaker of the year in 2020!”
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Andy Roark: Ooh. Welcome everybody to the Cone of Shame Veterinary Podcast. I am your host, Dr. Andy Roark. Guys. I am here with my friend, Dr. Mary Gardner, and we are talking about helping pet owners process end of life decisions. You’re like, boy, Andy, that sounds like a real downer. It’s not. It’s really not. I have had Mary Gardner on the podcast a number of times.
She’s one of my favorite people to talk to. She’s so funny and positive and optimistic. We talk about end of life, we talk about euthanasia a lot. We talk about hospice care. But we don’t talk about it in a sad way. I wanna make sure, I always say out front, we don’t mean to be disrespectful.
I don’t think people listening will, will take it that way. But it’s one of those things where when you deal in euthanasia, you should find some levity where you can find it, and you should choose to look on the bright side and see end of life care in the most positive way that you can.
I think Mary Gardner does that better than absolutely anybody. And so we, laugh a lot and we talk a lot about deep thoughts around end of life care and what it means. And we talk about the beliefs of pet owners. We talk about religion and all of these sorts of things. It’s really a very fun conversation.
I hope you guys will enjoy it. Let’s get into this episode.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: This is your show. We’re glad you’re here. We want to help you in your veterinary career. Welcome to the Cone of Shame with Dr. Andy Roark.
Dr. Andy Roark: Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Mary Gardner. How are you, my friend?
Dr. Mary Gardner: Yeah, I’m good, Andy. I know I need like little sparklers. Yeah,
Dr. Andy Roark: We need to add in an applause track is what I need. Yeah. So yeah, for those who don’t know you, you are you’ve been a friend of mine since the first day of vet school.
Dr. Mary Gardner: That’s right.
Dr. Andy Roark: And you are also a co-founder and CEO of Lap at Lap of Love Pet Hospice. And you are an entrepreneur. You have a lot of different things going on, and you are one of my favorite people in the world to talk to, so I’m so glad that you are here.
Dr. Mary Gardner: Hey, what is this my fourth time or maybe my third time?
Dr. Andy Roark: I think it’s, I think that your fourth or fifth time, maybe.
Dr. Mary Gardner: Maybe.
Dr. Andy Roark: That’s what I was thinking. I saw an article that came out back in, in April, and I immediately thought of you when I saw it.
And it’s called Replacing a Deceased Pet Helps Emotionally. And so this article is citing a number of statistics that came out of a MetLife study.
So they did a survey and they said that more than 40% of people got a new pet before the other pet had died. When they’re talking about replacing pets after euthanasia or after losing a pet on average, respondents said the socially acceptable wait time before getting a new pet is after two months.
They said 75 people said they did not feel guilt about adding a new pet too soon. And guilt about adding a new pet, not, high up 62% chose a pet of the same type and size when they got a new dog after or ca after the last after the last one. And then, let’s see the most common breeds that were brought into a house after the loss of another dog breed were mixed breeds. Labrador Retrievers and German Shepherds. They were the most popular dog breeds.
Dr. Mary Gardner: German shepherds?!
Dr. Andy Roark: I know! I thought that was, I thought that was an odd choice too, but, yeah.
A mixed breed and a Labrador, I’m we’re these are the most popular breeds, but the German Shepherd’s kind of the dark horse here
Dr. Mary Gardner: That was surprising. Okay. I’d love to know, you know, who they asked at MetLife. Okay. Very interesting statistics, Andy.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, sure.
Dr. Mary Gardner: And love thought about me.
Dr. Andy Roark: So I did immediately. I was like, I wanna know what Mary Gardner thinks about this. And then also, this is how my mind works, is I started thinking about. I hate to say it, replacing a pet, but that’s what we’re talking about, right? Is what does that transition look like?
What does the next pet look like? And so started think about this, what does this mean? And so I wanted to ask you some questions the co-founder of Lap of Love Pet Hospice, and been involved in palliative care and hospice care for well over a decade now and things like that. So I just wanna had some questions that came to my mind for you. Do you see pet owners justifying getting a new pet? Like when you’re working with families and they’re like, they have a hospice case, something like that. Do they ever have puppy running around that they feel guilty about or do you ever get?
Dr. Mary Gardner: Okay.
Dr. Andy Roark: It’s we’re just fostering right now. Okay. Do you ever get that?
Dr. Mary Gardner: Yes, by the way, I get it all. So yes, I have seen new dogs in the house. Now, sometimes I’ll give ’em some slack, ’cause sometimes. They bring in another pet because they hope it reenergizes the one that’s not well. I’ve seen that where it has helped.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: I’ve also seen where it doesn’t help and
Dr. Andy Roark: yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: They’re knocking the old boy over. They’re stealing the food.
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: Yeah. He’s got cognitive dysfunction, and now you add this other dog like. Cats, right? Cats are don’t mess with their system and now you’re bringing in this little
Dr. Andy Roark: Yes.
Dr. Mary Gardner: So, I’ve seen it where they brought it in to, to help have, add some fun, add some spice to
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. Okay. I get that.
Dr. Mary Gardner: Also, I have seen where, dare we say, I. I don’t wanna call it a replacement ’cause it’s not a replace what it
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I don’t like that. I don’t like that either. Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: You can’t replace Dunkin. You’re, what you are filling the massive freaking hole that dog dug in your heart. And you can’t imagine not hearing the nails on the tile, not smelling the fur, not standing up and having fur all over you.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: Not having to wipe down a dog after you walk in the rain. Like not having to step on kitty litter like you are replacing. what it meant to have that pet in your life and not
Dr. Andy Roark: Yes.
Dr. Mary Gardner: You’re filling that void that they are gonna leave. And I think it’s actually quite an honor like you’re honoring that they did a really damn good job.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: and you can’t
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: life without them. And it’s okay to have a little bit of joy while you’re also having a little bit of sadness go on
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. Oh, totally. Again, and I don’t mean this as any sort of criticism on pattern, I’m just genuinely really interested in, how do people process this? Do you have a sense like If there’s three categories, right? There’s people who say, Hey, I know the end is coming. We’re going to go ahead and have another dog come in.
And for the benefits you talked about of, bringing some energy or just going ahead and, you hear a lot of people say, I, I want the younger dog to learn from the older dog. And they have this story that they tell. And, but whether it’s that right of we’re gonna, we’re gonna bring in a puppy while we still have previous pet.
And then there is the direct handoff which is hey our pet has passed away. There’s sort of a hole in our heart and in the house, and, we’re not gonna wait very long and we’re gonna have another pet come in. And so the, survey was saying, two months or so, and then there’s people like me where lost my last dog, I didn’t get another dog for well over a year.
And it was that was just a thing that I wanted and, just I, I don’t know. I don’t exactly know why that I had that experience, but I just, I wasn’t ready to get another dog right away. And so anyway. Do you get any sort of sense of like, how common are those groups?
Dr. Mary Gardner: I think it’s such a mixed bag. I think all of those groups are equally weighted because it’s so situational and I have gotten a new dog like soon after my Neo died. I was my doman that, I was like, oh my gosh,
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: I miss all those things and I adopted. an adult doberman because an adult dog again, I wanted his presence. I didn’t wanna start with a puppy. So I think everything is so situational. And then there are times where you go through intense care and intense caregiving can really give burnout to some families and to a caregiver. so if you were spending so much time in the, and the anxiety of. I’m gonna be saying goodbye soon. I’ve gotta, you could be having arguments in the house, like all the things that, that, the emotional stress it brings, caring for an elderly or terminal pet. That when they’re gone. Sometimes you just need a freaking break. And
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: imagine bringing a new dog in, whether it’s a puppy or or a kitten, you know that’s obvious training. But any new pet in your house is getting a whole new system, getting everybody organized. Are they separation anxiety? Who knows what they’ve got? So sometimes you just don’t, you just wanna have a break and it doesn’t mean anything more than just having that break. And I’ve had times where
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: I needed a longer period of time, and then there have been times where I’m like, whew, I need tomorrow. I, I am so sad.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: I need it right away. So I think it’s just it’s all the gamut. You also could have kids and maybe you wanna have have something the kids can focus on. I think, it is such a mixed bag. I don’t see more one way or the other.
Dr. Andy Roark: When you think about people who have it said, had a difficult, a extremely difficult time, at, the end of life or, or saying goodbye and you think about other people appear to be handling this sort of transition pretty well. Are there any characteristics or patterns that stand out to you?
Are there things that sort of predispose people to have a real difficult time during the transition as opposed to people who, I don’t wanna say are more resilient necessarily, they seem to come through the experience. in, in a less painful way.
Dr. Mary Gardner: Here’s just a little tip. If you hear what we call distancing language, so for instance,
Dr. Andy Roark: Okay.
Dr. Mary Gardner: if you’ve got I’ve got my dog, Norin. It’s a boy dog. If I call him it
Dr. Andy Roark: Okay.
Dr. Mary Gardner: like I’m gonna put it down this weekend. So many of us think, oh, that she doesn’t love her dog. She’s not even calling it by her, by his name or calling it a boy, right?
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: She called it. So if you don’t, it’s not that it’s actually distancing language because you’re so like upset over the thought of losing that pet that you actually are almost not even thinking about it. And you use this distancing language and I think. Oftentimes we think that they’re not caring, but these are the ones that we need to actually, these are the people we gotta be really mindful of that they’re having a hard time that they’re
Dr. Andy Roark: Really.
Dr. Mary Gardner: like, I don’t wanna see it. I don’t want like it. And and that is actually something very different. So that’s just one
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh
Dr. Mary Gardner: thing to keep in mind. Don’t assume, and don’t assume if they’re jovial, because it’s called duping delight, where like laughing over something is actually because you’re either painful or lying, and so
Dr. Andy Roark: yes.
Dr. Mary Gardner: this ” haha I’m going to be fine this weekend.”
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. Yeah. It’s, laughing, laughing because, the alternative is breaking down. Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: It’s called duping delight.
Dr. Andy Roark: That’s super.
Dr. Mary Gardner: And
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh,
Dr. Mary Gardner: you know what, we just gotta be there for whatever it is. And there’s times also where they’re ready. I’ve been, they’ve been struggling
Dr. Andy Roark: yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: for so long. They’ve been making this, they’ve been going back and forth and they’re ready. So like this weekend I actually euthanized my own kitty cat on Saturday. Ugh.
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, I’m so sorry, Mary.
Dr. Mary Gardner: Mingo and I got Mingo in 2008, so the summer after we graduated vet school. So that’s a long time. And I got I found her in, at, in the islands. So I found her in the Turks and Caicos Islands, and I brought her back home with me in a carrier and everything. So I rescued this cat from the island
Dr. Andy Roark: You took her away from a tropical paradise and brought her to your apartment? Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: It was North Caicos, a very remote island, and there was no food around. She was like emaciated and she just had Dorito chips. So don’t make it sound like I brought her back
Dr. Andy Roark: Okay. All right.
Dr. Mary Gardner: Jamaica living on a hammock
Dr. Andy Roark: No. Yeah, exactly right. You took her away from a resort, a tropical resort.
Dr. Mary Gardner: Where all the guests were feeding her. No, she was emaciated.
Dr. Andy Roark: A hundred percent, yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: She was missing a back foot, like there she was a hot mess. Anyway.
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Okay.
It’s been about, it’s been almost a year of dealing with IBD and like all this stuff. And Dr. Beth Lechner, remember her from when she was an intern.
Yes.
Dr. Mary Gardner: So she’s a specialist down
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: Florida, an internal medicine specialist. So I’ve been going to her with Bingo, she knows all the stress
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: that I’ve been having and, it comes to a point where I’m just like, what am I? What am I, waiting for? Am I waiting for her to be bad that the decision is super easy? And I said,
Dr. Andy Roark: yeah.
I promised
Dr. Mary Gardner: her this promise I make is to take care of her even to the end. And I don’t want her to be so bad.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: But I also say this is gonna be weird, but euthanasia sometimes is like being nauseous and you just need to vomit. And you’re nauseous and have you ever been nauseous where, all I need to do is put my head in that
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: vomit and I’ll feel better but none of us wanna do it.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yes. I hate to say that, but yes.
Dr. Mary Gardner: That’s euthanasia is you’re Just, nauseous and you know you’ve gotta do it. And once you do it, you actually feel better. And as soon
Dr. Andy Roark: yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: I did it, just the relief of my anxiety having to do this, of saying goodbye, the whole, legacy gone. She was such a legacy to me since I’ve graduated vet school. It was really hard and sometimes they, you feel relief and a joy again. It doesn’t mean I don’t love Mingo if I went out to get another cat. It’s just that stress is gone. And then I also could have a hot mess brain and three months.
Dr. Andy Roark: I think every veteran wants to help people, especially at the end of their pet’s life, help the people. And we want to be comfortable, we wanna be supportive. And as I’ve gotten older, I think I’ve gotten more and more around to this idea that you have to be a little bit careful.
Because you wanna be able to take people’s hurt away, but sometimes there’s just nothing that you can say and sometimes you can make it worse. Mary, do you think that there’s anything that veterinarians can say to pet owners to help reduce pain? I know that it’s probably very contextual, but, yeah.
What is your thought there? You and I have talked before about that sort of trying to interject a little bit too much into the situation and what, where do you come down on that?
Dr. Mary Gardner: It’s hard. And you know what, they’ll also, so many people will say too, what would you do? And
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: If it was my own pet, and sometimes we get so much into that and it’s hard because all of our situations are so different.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: For that, and then I’m going to talk, I think a little bit more to your point, I always say there’s a subjective time period and we are in that subjective time period. Whether we wanna say goodbye today or tomorrow or a month from now, I support your decision. if you call me.
Dr. Andy Roark: Okay.
Dr. Mary Gardner: Monday and say, oh my God, I had a crappy weekend. Buster couldn’t get up, blah, blah, blah. Can you come today and say goodbye? I support your decision. If you call me on Monday and say,
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: an amazing weekend. We did five things on his bucket list. He had visits from his girlfriends, we took pictures. Can you come and say goodbye because that’s how we want his last weekend to be. I’ll support your decision. And I think sometimes us vets
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: like, but he’s doing good, you’re not around all the other stress and all the other So you’ve gotta rely also on your owners to say, I’m emotionally now ready to say goodbye.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: So then one small little trick that you could, that I like to say is, so let me ask you, Andy, do you want your pets to suffer?
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. No def, definitely not. Yeah, definitely not.
Dr. Mary Gardner: None of us wants our pets to suffer. Oftentimes, as a veterinarian, you’re euthanizing a pet and they’re just, they look like a hot mess and they’re, scrawny and all the things, right?
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: You are trying to comfort the family that they’re making the best decision, right? So we’ll say, he’s suffering, so we’re doing the right thing. So when you say he’s suffering, what did you just tell the family?
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, I told you, screwed this up. Like you’ve, done this wrong.
Dr. Mary Gardner: You’ve done this wrong.
Dr. Andy Roark: And you, have, yeah like your dog is clearly in pain.
Dr. Mary Gardner: You made him suffer. Right? The thing that none of us [want to hear.] So, instead,
Dr. Andy Roark: Why did you let this ‘happen?
All you have to say, and it’s so easy, is he’s struggling, and We’re doing this so he doesn’t suffer, and it turns the whole thing. Oh, that’s good. Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: thing like, oh my gosh, now I’m actually giving the gift of taking away the, of the opportunity of suffering. And so the only time I’ll ever say he’s suffering is when you’ve got that person on denial Island and that animal needs us to intervene because they don’t want to euthanize. And we know
Dr. Andy Roark: Right.
Dr. Mary Gardner: know that they’ve had that, where you’re like, what the heck?!
Dr. Andy Roark: Yes.
Dr. Mary Gardner: Those are just some tips.
Dr. Andy Roark: Gotcha. What do you do when pet owners lean into religion? I’m sure that’s happened to you before religion of any type. So, let’s just say, let’s say, not your religion, religion becomes a thing. Do you lean in, do you lean back? Do you just try to disappear into the wallpaper? What do you do?
Dr. Mary Gardner: I love this. So listen, as a, girl that’s named Mary. Clearly religion has been a part of my life at some point, and probably we all know what religion that is, right? but I’m not a practicing Catholic, but that’s what I was raised to be. So I lean in to the fact that. If we’re doing some celebratory rituals of whatever it is, that’s amazing. That’s so cool. This pet means so much to them that they’re placing the value of their rituals, of what they believe on into this pet’s passing. Who am I to say, Buddhist or, Jewish religion, whatever.
It could be like, that’s not cool, or, he doesn’t go to heaven. And, I told you my joke about heaven once. Did I? I think I did. And you loved it. Hold on. I’m gonna tell that to you in just a second.
Dr. Andy Roark: Okay. All right.
Dr. Mary Gardner: the point is I find it fascinating and lovely to be a part of these things, I, try to res respect. Listen, I can’t tell you I can, I know some Jewish Hebrew because they’ve prayed over their pet. I’ve been where I’m
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah,
Dr. Mary Gardner: suffocating because of the incense flying around. And the Buddhist, I’ve been so many rituals and I love it. Like I just love it. So I remember though, and I told you this once and you were dying laughing, don’t know if I said it on your podcast or not, so I’m gonna repeat it, but
Dr. Andy Roark: Sure. Go ahead.
Dr. Mary Gardner: at the University of Pennsylvania and a vet student came up to me and he said, Dr. Gardner, I am an atheist. I said, okay. And so I, when somebody asks me I think that their pet goes to heaven, what should I say? And I said, okay, confirm this.
Dr. Andy Roark: Okay.
Dr. Mary Gardner: You are saying that you are an atheist, so you don’t believe in heaven, right? And he’s yes. I’m like, Okay. I just wanna make sure I got atheist down. And I
Dr. Andy Roark: Right.
Dr. Mary Gardner: if somebody asks you that you want, you wanna know what to say? He’s yeah. I’m like, okay. So here’s what you say. the family that is asking you if their pet goes to heaven clearly is not an atheist.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. there’s one answer that’s gonna make them happy and one answer that’s not going to make them happy.
Dr. Mary Gardner: So just say yes. Just say yes.
Dr. Andy Roark: You’re an atheist. We got nothing to lose.
Dr. Mary Gardner: Whatcha worried you gonna go to hell you don’t believe in hell either and I hand, God, this was a real conversation. So if somebody comes and you don’t know for sure, just say it’s, clearly they want the answer to be yes.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: the miracle is none of us really know. None of us really know. If it eases my mind to think that I’ve got an army of angels watching over me every day. You keep your pie hole quiet. I got an army of angels watching,
Dr. Andy Roark: Yes.
Dr. Mary Gardner: over me and speed of angels.
Dr. Andy Roark: exactly right.
Dr. Mary Gardner: crematory too. And so we don’t call the pets, we call them angels. So every pet through
Dr. Andy Roark: Okay.
Dr. Mary Gardner: They’re angels. Oh yes, your angel is here, blah, blah. Because there’s
Dr. Andy Roark: Gotcha.
Dr. Mary Gardner: When you give ashes back, do you say, here’s Toby, or do you say, here’s Toby’s
Dr. Andy Roark: ashes.
Dr. Mary Gardner: Right.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yes.
Here’s your angel. Oh, I like this. Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: so we’ve had one or two people. I don’t like angel ’cause I’m not cat, whatever it is. And I say it’s a term of endearment. That’s all that it is.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yes.
Dr. Mary Gardner: It’s a term of freaking endearment. It doesn’t mean I believe that they’re an angel.
Dr. Andy Roark: People. I love people today. They’re like,
Dr. Mary Gardner: call
Dr. Andy Roark: I can’t believe
Dr. Mary Gardner: believe she called. It’s like me calling. Hey sweetheart.
Dr. Andy Roark: I know.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, I was gonna say, I see problems there also, like that’s the point. It’s like there’s just not an easy answer. Everybody should just go along as best they can, I think.
Dr. Mary Gardner: Is it going to kill you just to say yes or I, and I’ve had, and I truly have had either athe, whatever, Yeah.
I’ve had atheists during euthanasia that say, don’t believe, and I’m like, okay, dust to dust, ashes, whatever. I’m not gonna sit here and try
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: read them the, I don’t, ’cause I don’t, mother would hate me
Dr. Andy Roark: No. That,
Dr. Mary Gardner: the
Dr. Andy Roark: that’s not, in our job description. It’s a hundred percent not, what we’re doing.
Dr. Mary Gardner: Absolutely not. But you know what? If the family wants, if the little children wanna write a note to their dog and for me to take it to
Dr. Andy Roark: A hundred percent.
Dr. Mary Gardner: I’m not gonna say, why are you doing that? ’cause it ain’t gonna read
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. No
Dr. Mary Gardner: no,
Dr. Andy Roark: bad.
Dr. Mary Gardner: take that. You roll it up like a
Dr. Andy Roark: No. A hundred percent yes. Like a sacred scroll. Yes.
Dr. Mary Gardner: in their paws and you freaking do the right thing. Sorry, I get a little
Dr. Andy Roark: Yes. I a hundred. Okay, good. I like it. I totally agree with that. Alright, I was thinking about this recently. as a veterinarian who say, you’re a hospice vet, right? How much do you think about death? And like philosophically versus just saying, you know what, I don’t think too much about it.
I just, I go and I, and I comfort the family and I go on and I choose not to think about it. I could see people going either way, how much do you Mary Gardner? Just think about death, as opposed to saying, this is a medical process. And that’s how I think about it, and I really don’t reflect on it much
Dr. Mary Gardner: Okay. This is a great question ’cause it’s ask asking a vet that primarily does, vaccines Like, do you just think about vaccines all the time?
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: but ours is a way more emotionally heavy situation.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: I don’t think that my job has had me think about death more. What has made me think about death more is after I turned 50.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I can see that’s, that’s right over the hill for me.
Dr. Mary Gardner: I was like, holy crap, I’ve got less years ahead of me than I do behind me,
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: so I better make it count. So that’s what really hit me the most. However, what it has. Helped me with is understanding death humans, and being there to support people who are doing hospice to the, to a human having to
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: decision of care because we don’t even have euthanasia. and the hospice. So even when my, stepsister was dying two years ago and I’m like, we need to put her in hospice.
And everyone was no. And I’m like, no, it’s a good thing. It’s a care, it’s a good thing. Like it’s okay. So I’m much more of a champion for end of life in the human space. I think because of this, and I’m reading
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: a lot more books and I don’t read much, but I read more in that than I do even in management and stuff like that. I just find it very fascinating.
Dr. Andy Roark: I think that’s really interesting. I just think I’m having the same sort of thoughts, right? So I’m coming up, I’m 48 now, and again, I’ve been thinking about my kids are getting ready to leave and go off to college, and I think that there’s a, that, I know that’s a big deal for me right now, but it’s making me feel like I’m gonna be an empty nester in couple short years, and it’ll just be me and my wife.
Dr. Mary Gardner: and,
Dr. Andy Roark: kicking around this house by ourselves. And like
Dr. Mary Gardner: get more
Dr. Andy Roark: I know that I’ve, yeah,
Dr. Mary Gardner: it’s
Dr. Andy Roark: exactly right. It’s, it is time to get more pets. But it does make you start to think about where is this going and what does this mean? And I think I’m starting to have some of those thoughts. And so it, it is interesting. I am, I do think that sometimes you can overthink your day to day job,
Dr. Mary Gardner: And to me, it’s not euthanasia every day that I’m doing. I am truly making an experience for someone who is in pain. That person is in pain, and I’m making an an experience to help take away their pain. And so it’s
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: the pet and the euthanasia.
So I leave not heavy hearted. I
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: oh my gosh, that dog had such a cool home. That dog had them doing the Jewish prayer over them or whatever. I don’t mean to be do,
Dr. Andy Roark: Yes.
Dr. Mary Gardner: love it. I, that pet had such a cool dog bed, like how lucky was he? I leave there knowing like how cool it is and what bothers me what I think about are the ones that don’t get that.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: and that’s why I’m a champion for, end of life to be better. But,
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Mary Gardner: listen though, when I see my wrinkles. And saggy skin and all that stuff. I’m like, oh I’m
Dr. Andy Roark: How many.
Dr. Mary Gardner: starting to become a sharpie,
Dr. Andy Roark: Not, remotely true. How many veterinarians have worked at Lap of Love, Mary, over the years? Do you have a, do you have any idea?
Dr. Mary Gardner: That’s a great question. So Yeah. Over a thousand. We currently have 400 that are working with us now. Yeah, prob I would say, even closer to 2000 have worked with us.
Dr. Andy Roark: That’s amazing. Alright, so you have seen a lot of veterinarians do hospice care, and I’m sure some of them had a great experience and some of them probably figured out this wasn’t for them.
Are there any characteristics in veterinarians when you think about the people who really just found, a job that they really cared about or really loved in hospice versus vets who are like, yeah, this isn’t for me. Are there patterns there that you see between those two groups?
Dr. Mary Gardner: Okay. That’s a great, so if you were to say, Mary, like what makes a great lap of love vet?
that’s just a, an easy one for me to do. And by the way, I’m, over here. look on my on my side eye over here to see how
Dr. Andy Roark: I thought you were, I thought you were Googling what makes a good, you’re asking Chat GPT what, it is.
Dr. Mary Gardner: Okay. No, I stand corrected. 1060 veterinarians have worked with us, So, that’s, I knew it was over a thousand. Okay.. So there, there are people who self elect the, there, they, you self elect into this.
Dr. Andy Roark: Okay.
Dr. Mary Gardner: Do you remember, I think you were, you and I were in gross anatomy class together,
Dr. Andy Roark: Yes, we are.
Dr. Mary Gardner: and I remember wearing our like overalls and stuff And I think Janelle in our class was her name. Like she went
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: pathology.
Dr. Andy Roark: A pathologist. Yeah. Janelle, Dr. Janelle Novak. Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: Yes. I look at how we remember this. I remember the smell of cutting into the intestines of those like and stuff and here’s Janelle,
Dr. Andy Roark: You were out, you’re
Dr. Mary Gardner: right?
Dr. Andy Roark: yeah, you made an incision. You were like, it was in your face and you were like, I’m out.
Dr. Mary Gardner: so bad, right? It was like an intestinal fart just came and who chooses to be in? This is my thought. Same thing with our world, right? You electively choose to, be into end of life care. And
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: This may sound weird, Andy, but I’m really good at it. I’m actually really, I’m proud to say I’m really good at that.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I believe that.
Dr. Mary Gardner: but I’m really good. And so people are good with that bedside manner, with that communication with, Yeah. Caring about it. So a, they gotta say it. We’ve also had people that say, my husband thinks I’d be really good at it and so that’s, actually very telling because I, I could tell some of my friends are, you wouldn’t be good at it now. Me though, what’s interesting is when we go to, we do in-home hospice, right?
Dr. Andy Roark: Uhhuh.
Dr. Mary Gardner: And we don’t bring technicians with us. We go ourselves. And some people may get a little bit nervous about that, and it’s not because they’re nervous to go into homes. It’s what if I can’t hit a vein, right?
Dr. Andy Roark: Sure. Yeah, I agree.
Dr. Mary Gardner: We train everybody on how to deal with that. that’s, not my thing. You gotta, how can I make a good pa impression? you gotta work on your arts and craft skills. But Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: Okay.
Dr. Mary Gardner: What makes a really good lap of love vet? Is all vets, I would say are compassionate. Like all of us are oozing compassion, right? So it’s not that I think that’s such an obvious thing to say. They have to be compassionate. What I think is so important is know how to read a room. So you walk family’s
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: home and there’s three people there. There’s the, husband and wife that are in an argument. There’s the teenage kid that’s blaming them for not doing the surgery or whatever, right? And you need to know how to read a room fast. And you need to know when you need to be the quiet vet. You need to know when to be the silly vet. You need to be the one that you know what? They need time. They need me to talk about why this decision’s the best decision. They, you know what? They need me to do this fast and get outta here gotta read a room and that’s a hard thing to do sometimes. Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: It is not everyone’s, oh, don’t you get bored of what you do? every home I go to is a new story. Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: Everyone is amazing. Like I love it. And I come out with, as we go to dinner and I’ll like, I can babble your ear off to with my stories. you gotta not be robotic about the
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Mary Gardner: robotic about is pulling up my medications. okay, I know it’s a 60 pound dog, here I go,
Dr. Andy Roark: Yep.
Dr. Mary Gardner: But the rest of it is all artistic and you gotta be good at it and you have to appreciate we are, we obsess about the details that matter, like Yeah. Yeah. It is so important to make sure all those details are important. So you gotta be somebody who obsesses about those good details. Not all details, ’cause not all details matter, but the that matter because our experience is what makes it beautiful and that’s our secret sauce and not appreciate it
Dr. Andy Roark: Dr. Mary Gardner, thanks so much for being here. Where can people find you online?
Dr. Mary Gardner: Oh, Andy, I will come anytime you find some random article. So I wanna talk to you. So my personal social media website is, my handle is Dr. Mary Gardner. So Dr. Mary Gardner and then Lap of Love is where you can find information on hospice.
Dr. Andy Roark: Outstanding. Thanks for being here my friend. Guys. Thanks for tuning and listening to everybody. Take care of Yourselves, gang. And that’s what I got for you guys. I hope you enjoyed it. I hope you got something out of it. Super big thanks to Mary Gardner for being here. She’s really amazing. One of my first veterinary friends back from our, days in orientation at vet school.
So anyway, she means the world to me and I always love to hear what she has to think. Guys, thanks for being here. Take care of yourselves, everybody. I’ll talk to you later.