Dr. Jules Benson, Chief Veterinary Officer at Nationwide, joins Dr. Andy Roark to discuss new research highlighting the health concerns present in brachycephalic and “extreme” brachycephalic dog breeds.
This episode is sponsored and made possible ad-free by Nationwide®!
LINKS
Nationwide® analysis of 50,000 dogs confirms brachycephalic breeds face increased health risks: https://news.nationwide.com/brachycephalic-breeds-analysis-face-increased-health-risks/
Spectrum Of Care: https://www.petinsurance.com/veterinarians/spectrum-of-care/
Respiratory Function Grading Scheme: https://www.avma.org/news/health-screening-test-rolled-out-brachycephalic-dog-breeds
All DAR Links: linktr.ee/DrAndyRoark
ABOUT OUR GUEST
Jules Benson, BVSc, MRCVS, is Chief Veterinary Officer at Nationwide. He is a veterinary industry strategist focused on ways technology and data can transform the veterinary profession and the lives of animals. A member of the Veterinary Innovation Council Board of Directors and MentorVet Advisory Board, he has nearly 20 years of experience in private practice, start-ups, marketing, and pet health data.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Andy Roark:
Welcome, everybody, to The Cone of Shame Veterinary Podcast. I am your host, Dr. Andy Roark.
Guys, I’m here today with my good friend, Dr. Jules Benson. He is talking about a new white paper. It’s a couple of white papers, actually, on brachycephalic dog breeds that have been out in the last couple of months. Guys, this is a fascinating discussion on the dark sides of brachycephalic breeds.
I love the little guys. Don’t get me wrong. But they got real health problems. And in this episode we talk about a huge data set that Nationwide has put out talking about the claims that they see in brachycephalics and extreme brachycephalics and how the differences break down between those two types of dogs. What’s an extreme brachycephalic, you say?
Hang on and you’re going to find out, but this is a great episode. We talk about what are the risks. We talk about where are they coming from. We talk about what can we do about them. We talk about how do we approach this as an industry. What are our options here? How bad is the problem? How severe is it? How great a risk? All those sorts of things. It’s really a fun conversation. You’re going to soak it up, I promise.
Gang, thanks so much to Nationwide for making this episode available ad-free. Let’s get into it.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter:
(Singing) This is your show. We’re glad you’re here. We want to help you in your veterinary career. Welcome to The Cone of Shame with Dr. Andy Roark.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Jules Benson, how are you?
Dr. Jules Benson:
I’m very well, Dr. Andy Roark.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh, thanks for being here, man. Hey, it’s so good to talk to you. I always enjoy when we get to catch up.
Dr. Jules Benson:
It’s been a long time since we’ve known each other. The industry is just this small.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I was actually thinking that when we got on. How long have I known you? It’s been years.
Dr. Jules Benson:
It’s been a decade, I think. Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It has been at least 10 years. I met you at one of the formal galas, I think. I think that’s where I met you, at one of the big conferences and it was a dinner thing.
Dr. Jules Benson:
There was a glass of wine involved.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And you had this great accent and I was like, “I also have a great accent.”
Dr. Jules Benson:
There’s silly voices, there’s Elmo and there’s me, and I think I’ve probably got the better end of that scale.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Love it. Oh, man. So for those who do not know you, you are the Chief Veterinary Officer at Nationwide.
Dr. Jules Benson:
That is true.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And you have been doing a number of really interesting projects. And so you’ve got some white papers that came out recently that I want to ask you about.
Dr. Jules Benson:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so here’s why I want to ask you about this. This is why I was really interested in this topic. So I’ve been on social media for a long time and I really like to share a lot of puppy and kitten pictures and joy of practice type stuff. And it’s probably been about eight, 10 years ago, when I would start to post pictures of certain dog breeds. At first, I would get tons and tons and tons of likes but I always would read through comments or people would send me emails and things, and I started to get some pushback on these beautiful, adorable puppy photos. And they were some very well-articulated arguments about me highlighting these dogs because they were brachycephalic dogs. And at first I was like, “You people.”
Dr. Jules Benson:
[inaudible 00:03:28] puppies.
Dr. Andy Roark:
“You need to find some joy in the world. Who criticizes puppy pictures? Really? How upset you have to be?” And then they continued to come. And as I said generally, unfortunately, they were very well-laid out arguments about the health detriments of brachycephalics and as our role as veterinarians, there’s a difference in taking care of pets and being accepting of pet owners and being encouraging of this thing that they love, and also not perpetuating breeding habits and things that lead to health problems. And we do have responsibility in that regard.
And those arguments, honestly, this is a place in my life where I initially did not like this position, but I looked at it and I looked at the data and what they were saying and ultimately, I came over to that side of the table to say, “Yeah, I still celebrate those pets when they come in,” but it’s extremely rare for you to find brachycephalics on my social media. Not because I don’t love them or think that they’re wonderful or beautiful, but just because I do have concerns about perpetuating the short nose in dogs and what that means for their health.
And so you guys put out, and it’s under your stewardship, these white papers come out from Nationwide, talking about brachycephalics and risks of brachycephalics, as far as their health and insurance claims that are being made. And so let me just pause right here for a second and say, can you tell me a little bit about the research you guys did and where it came from? Just at a high level.
Dr. Jules Benson:
Yeah, for sure. So we started this … One of the nice things about working in the insurance world, and one of the reasons that I’m still so drawn to it and so passionate about it, is that being an enormous, unapologetic data nerd, there are things that we can do. If you think about being in your practice and you can say, “Okay, how many dogs do we have with pancreatitis?”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Right.
Dr. Jules Benson:
You can run a search for cPLI tests that you ran, but you can’t really say how much do people spend on pancreatitis within your practice?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Right.
Dr. Jules Benson:
But the advantage we have is that when people send their claims in from veterinary clinics, so we’re getting the information from the clinic, we are typing those claims. So we know that it’s pancreatitis. We know that it’s brachycephalic. We know that it’s pneumonia. So we have really good classification of those data. So to me, being able to drill into those data and provide that back to veterinary healthcare teams and owners, that’s the real value of what we can bring to the table.
So for this, we did some work on cancer last year. We did three papers on cancer. We did one on aging pets and we’ll do another aging pets later this year. But brachycephalic was something we wanted to get into, just because it continues to be, and I don’t know how much you follow the news, especially in the UK, there’s a lot of really, I think positive activism about brachycephalic and about breed predilections in the UK.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Dr. Jules Benson:
The British Veterinary Association went point around using photos, did a really good job about, I think it was about 10 years ago, providing guidelines to industry who saying, “We don’t want you to show some of these dogs in these situations, and this is why.” It’s similar to using dogs with collars and tags. For a long time I think we’ve had a degree of activism in the industry to say you shouldn’t be using pictures of dogs without identification on because it sends the wrong message. And I think this is a similar vein in that of saying, “Okay, well.” So anyway, so we looked at brachycephalic dogs and were guided by the data.
The way that our team approach it is that we have hundreds of thousands of years of dog data to look at. And then we let the data guide us into what is most interesting about these? Where are we seeing the spikes in claims activity? Where are we seeing the massive differences between them versus other groups of breeds? So you have to classify those brachycephalic, then compare them against other purebred dogs that don’t have that defect if you like, in terms of forcing that soft tissue into a shorter nose by occupying the same space. And so we were always guided by the data, and so that’s where we arrived at this. And this is where we tripped into this extreme brachycephalic space.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Dr. Jules Benson:
I don’t know if were you familiar with that term before?
Dr. Andy Roark:
I wasn’t until I read it in the white paper. Yeah. You break them out into brachycephalic and extreme brachycephalic. So that was actually going to be my first question, is talk to me about that. Talk to me about that distinction.
Dr. Jules Benson:
So we had done some work with brachycephalics previously and I think one of the criticisms was that you’re including some breeds and not others and why are you’re doing that. And so I think we wanted to take a really science-based approach to this. And so in the white paper actually, there’s a methodology that goes along with it. We identify the 15 or so brachycephalic breeds that we use in the analysis. And those are all breeds that were identified in at least three peer-reviewed papers.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Okay.
Dr. Jules Benson:
So as we started looking at this, we noticed among the data there were some pretty big differences between a few of the breeds and the peer reviewed papers, several of them referred to extreme phenotypes and were classifying those quote-unquote “extreme brachycephalics.” And so whenever I present on these data and I ask people, “What are the extreme brachycephalic breeds that you would expect coming out of this?” People nail it, right?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh, yeah.
Dr. Jules Benson:
It’s French Bulldogs, it’s English Bulldogs and it’s Pugs.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Dr. Jules Benson:
And the diversion of those in the data is massive. And you can see in the white paper, I know you’ve taken a look at it, we could talk about some of the numbers, but just talking about brachycephalic dogs on mass I think is misleading unless you’re breaking them out into the … It really is specific breeds who are driving the difference in claims activity among that class of breeds.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Okay, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. When you look at brachycephalics in general, because you get claims from every different type of breed, and so it’s really great. One of my favorite things you guys do is put out just most popular breeds every year. And it seems like an easy data pool for you, but I’m always fascinated in what are the breeds that people are bringing to the clinics. And so talk to me a little bit about the popularity of brachycephalic dogs. Where are these in the frequency of the patients that we’re seeing?
Dr. Jules Benson:
So overall brachycephalic breeds, and we looked over the past decade or so and we said, “Okay, from 2013 to 2022, what is the change in popularity, if any of brachycephalic breeds overall?” So we’re talking about everything. Boxers, Cavaliers, Lhasa Apso, French Bulldogs. Is there a change in overall population? And there was a little bit of a bump. It was about 19% to 21% of our purebred dogs. So there was a bit of a change there, but when you actually break those out into extreme versus non-extreme brachycephalics, the positions are pretty much switched. It used to be that the non-extreme brachycephalics were much more popular. And over the past 10 years that has reversed. And we’ve seen a massive change in the upswing of extreme brachycephalics, and that is driven frankly by one breed. So the French Bulldog …
Dr. Andy Roark:
The French Bulldog.
Dr. Jules Benson:
… over the past 10 years, it was 19th most popular purebred that we insured in 2013, sorry, and it is now the third most popular breed.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Wow. Meteoric rise, to go from 19 to three and 10 years.
Dr. Jules Benson:
It’s a five times increase in the popularity of the breed in that book. So it’s stratospheric and it’s happened fairly gradually over that time. Because I think we think about those fads, the Chihuahua, the Beverly Hills Chihuahua, we see those things and overnight, suddenly there’s a million more of these dogs. But for Frenchies it’s been pretty gradual over the past 10 years. But it’s problematic. And we can talk about the data, but I think the normalization of some of the behaviors that we see and some of the health issues that we see, I think it’s a really tough situation. And I’ve talked about this before, being in the clinic with people who all they’ve wanted to do was get a dog that they want to bring in their home and love and everything else. And we know that sometimes pet families aren’t always doing all the research they can or they’re so captivated by the persona they see in the media or whenever else that there’s not always a good heart versus head conversation going on.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Well at this point it’s a self-perpetuating cycle. If you like say Frenchies, they’re everywhere. And so how could they be problematic? How could this be a problem when I just see them everywhere? People wouldn’t have them all over the place if they were a dog that had health problems. And I understand people just having that immediate knee-jerk reaction. This isn’t some strange rare breed you ever see. These are one of the most common breeds out there. They’ve got to be a good, healthy, vibrant breed. And you go, “That doesn’t … No.”
Dr. Jules Benson:
And it’s funny, we’ll talk a little bit later perhaps about how do we help this, but I think the popularization and even watching the Super Bowl ads, I think it was Miles Teller and his girlfriend were dancing around in a super fun ad of them having a great time with their Frenchie. And not that that can’t happen, it’s just one of those situations of how do you insert yourself awkwardly into that conversation and say, “Hey, fun police here. No fun for you.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I don’t like to be that too. Even as I said that last line, I’m like, “Oh, I don’t know.” You see people and they love their little Frenchy and the Frenchy is an adorable happy little dog and you say, “I don’t want to be the fun police.” And especially waiting until someone has made the lifetime commitment of the pet to then say, “Oh by the way, let me tell you some bad news,” that doesn’t feel good either. Now before we leave, I want to take this and turn it around into an action steps. How do we … Without stomping on people’s hearts and while still maintaining the trust and relationship that’s going to get them to bring their pet back so we can continue to work with them, what is it useful for us to say to them? But before we get into that, I want to just pause here for a second and say, we’re speaking in these vague terms about problems and claims spiking up. Lay out for me, what are the risks specifically that we’re talking about?
Dr. Jules Benson:
So I think the white paper delves into this in more detail, but very generally when we look at the category of things like respiratory disease or respiratory, is that how you guys say it? Can I [inaudible 00:14:26]-
Dr. Andy Roark:
Respiratory is how I say it, yeah. I also say brachycephalic, as you say brachycephalic, and clearly I’m not yielding on this.
Dr. Jules Benson:
I was recording something earlier, I think I said brachycephalic and brachycephalic two sentences apart and I’m like, “I to go back in, because I have no idea how to say this anymore.” So I think I say brachycephalic. So if you look at the respiratory disease category, and we’re talking about everything from infectious tragal bronchitis to pneumonia, all of those diseases, in extreme brachycephalic dogs compared to non-brachycephalic purebred dogs, they are five times more likely to submit a claim for respiratory disease.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Okay.
Dr. Jules Benson:
Five times. For ocular disease, it’s about the same. They’re about five times more likely to submit a claim for ocular disease. So these two syndromes we could talk about in more detail, Brachycephalic Ocular Syndrome, which frankly I wasn’t that familiar with. I just assumed that when I see those exophthalmic dogs, they’re going to have problems, but apparently this has been looped into a syndrome now, Brachycephalic Ocular Syndrome.
And then the other biggie really is Brachycephalic Obstructive Airway Syndrome. Which to me I think that’s the most terrifying area, because when we look at Brachial Obstructive Airway Syndrome, you can’t compare the rates of disease in Brachial Obstructive Airway Syndrome with non-brachycephalic dogs because it doesn’t exist. That was always terrifying to me. So we compared extreme brachycephalics to non-extreme brachycephalics and those extreme brachycephalics, of those, the French Bulldog is 17 times more likely to submit a claim for Brachycephalic Obstructive Airway Syndrome than all the other dogs that still have brachycephalic phenotypes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
That’s mind-blowing. 17 times more than the other brachycephalic dogs.
Dr. Jules Benson:
And a million times more than the non-brachycephalic dogs that don’t have Brachycephalic Obstructive Airway Syndrome at all. So again, the leap for me is we’re not just saying it’s much more common in these dogs. We’re saying it exists exclusively in this group of dogs and these dogs, this particular breed are 17 times more likely than the rest of them to get it Absolutely mind-blowing. So for BAOS, the other thing that we looked at specifically was if dogs are affected by BOAS, are they more sick in other areas? So if we compared BOAS Frenchies with non-BOAS Frenchies and it gets worse. So if you have a Frenchie with BOAS, they’re five times more likely to have a claim for pneumonia than a non-BOAS Frenchie.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Dr. Jules Benson:
They’re twice as likely to have a claim for spinal disease as a non-BOAS Frenchie.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Wow.
Dr. Jules Benson:
So these really extreme affected dogs, they’re not just sick with BOAS, they’re more sick with other conditions as well.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, I’m really surprised by the spinal condition. So it makes total sense. So the Brachycephalic Obstructive Airway Syndrome is like hypoplastic trachea, elongated soft palate, everted laryngeal saccules, stenotic nares, tiny little nostrils. So unless I’m wrong, those are four pieces of it. And so if you have those things then it makes sense that you’re more likely to have pneumonia. You’re not-
Dr. Jules Benson:
Esophageal disease with the negative suppression.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Exactly.
Dr. Jules Benson:
Yeah. Exactly.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Those things make sense. I completely understand. You get some sort of respiratory, possibly kennel cough, that advances, secondary disease following. That all makes sense to me, but spinal abnormalities is not something that I would immediately say, “Oh, that makes sense.”
Dr. Jules Benson:
Well, and so talking to a neurologist who’s also a board certified neurologist about this, and when I was at school we were told that Dachshunds were the poster breed for IVDD, for the [inaudible 00:18:05] disc disease. And I think, again, this is a stat out thin air that I was told, but that Dachshunds have a prevalence 10 times all other dogs rolled together, it was that extreme. And you look at it now, we’ll have data on IVDD coming out later this year, but now they’re similar. So Frenchies and Dachshunds.
Dr. Andy Roark:
No.
Dr. Jules Benson:
Absolutely.
Dr. Andy Roark:
No.
Dr. Jules Benson:
The prevalence of IVDD.
Dr. Andy Roark:
No, knock me over with a feather. No.
Dr. Jules Benson:
Yeah. And when we talk to a neurologist, they say that the degree of disease anecdotally, from what they’ve seen is more severe in the Frenchies than it is in the Dachshunds.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I have not been talking about this in the exam room at all. I still talk to the Dachshund owners when they come in with their Dachshund puppy, and it’s a wonderful pet. Let me just tell you what I recommend for all my Dachshund owners just to cover our bases. I have not been leaning into that with my brachycephalics.
Dr. Jules Benson:
Yeah, yeah. And again, it’s Frenchies more than others, but actually we see it in some of the English Bulldogs as well. And we haven’t even talked about eyelid disease or heat stroke or these other types of things, but they’re also amplified in dogs with BOAS. So the BOAS dogs, we’ve had some really interesting … And so-what out of this, what does this mean or what can we do about it? I think having these conversations, even IVDD I wasn’t really aware of either, because I haven’t been in practice full-time for 10 years and so I haven’t seen this explosion of dogs and I haven’t seen what apparently the clinicians say to me, “Yeah, it’s Frenchies in IVDD, that’s exactly what we’re seeing now.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Wow, yeah.
Dr. Jules Benson:
And so I think getting the word out there, enabling clinicians to have better high quality conversations. And for us, taking some of the pressure off clinicians by providing the data and saying, “Hey, look at these data. This isn’t just me and my experience. This is hundreds of thousands of dogs and this is what we see and let’s create an awareness plan and an action plan from that.” And so everything from those dogs with the ocular syndrome, even down to if they have extreme exophthalmos or lagophthalmos, [inaudible 00:20:13] if you’re going outside or talking about topicals long term. Even educating owners, what it’s like when they call in and they say, “Does the eye seem painful?” And they’re like, “I don’t know, it’s red.” And it’s helping them understand the difference between injected sclera and what a painful corneal scratch looks like, I think getting that education up front I think will save eyes and will save people time and money.
And then around the respiratory disease, I think just helping them understand what they’re looking at. And in the kindest possible way, de-normalizing this. As this is something that is known in the breed, the snuffly-ness and the inability to breathe in certain situations, helping them understand that you should not be outside with your dog in extreme heat, that you should not be exercising your dog in humidity, that these are things that are actually dangerous to the health of your dog. And then even as we look at the other thing the data told us was that for Frenchies especially, it’s a disease of young dogs, we’re seeing those claims come in 75% of the time in dogs under two years of age.
So having a valuable conversation about early intervention. And we’ve talked to some researchers in Brazil and a couple of others who are … I think that the jury is out fully on the full benefit, but early surgical intervention with some of these extreme brachycephalics may actually lead to better outcomes. Maybe one of those situations, and peroneal neuropathy is the one we talking about, is an early surgical intervention actually better long term than waiting to put the three strikes on the block up. So I think this is a similar situation it looks like, and we’re still digging into the data on that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So let’s start talking about taking this in a positive direction, right? Let’s talk about action steps. Let’s talk about education. We’ve already talked about when people come in and they’ve got these pets and they are excited about their new English Bulldog, their new Frenchie, their new Pug, that’s not the time necessarily to talk about choosing your breed after they’ve chosen their breed. So talk to me, if you had your magic wand and you were going to alter the way that veterinary medicine is talking, educating, working with pet owners right now, how do you start to approach this? What are some ways where you feel like we can make some inroads to start to, as you said, de-normalized the brachycephalics, which I like your way of putting that.
Dr. Jules Benson:
And I think you’re right, there’s two aspects to it. There’s, with all the love in our hearts and all our professionalism, how do we talk to the owners of these pets who already have them? We’re not suggesting they give them back or re-home them, whatever else you. You’ve made that decision, let’s help you have the best life with your pet possible. And so I think it’s exactly that. It’s as early on as possible having a conversation, raising their awareness of the abnormalities within the breed of basically saying, “Hey, you’ve got a breed with a great personality. But there are some known issues with that,” and I don’t think it’s that much different from talking to Great Dane owners about orthopedic disease. People choose their breeds and there are issues with them, some people know them, some people don’t. I think making sure people are aware of the diseases and of what the signs are of when veterinary interventions should be called on.
People don’t know what histo looks like. Histo is incredibly dangerous, and if people don’t know the first steps to take, same thing with eye stuff. The people letting eye stuff go, that’s how you lose an eye with a dog like this. And the same thing with the respiratory disease. Even making them aware of, there’s things that we use for cardiac disease, resting respiratory rate, and we can use that for compromise of the respiratory system as well. If you are looking your dog, hey, just tell you 20 seconds and count their breaths. How does it look compared to last week, compared to last month, compared to the month before? Just getting them into the habit of being aware that there are issues with their dogs. So I think that’s the first side of it. The second side is, is it possible to decrease the popularity of these dogs?
And again, this isn’t us being the morality police, but this is, can we reduce the overall suffering or increase the welfare of the dogs under our care? And I’ve had a lot of conversations with a lot of people in this space and I think there’s some great thoughts around more responsible breeding programs. I think the issue with that is that while there’s still a dollar to be made, I think irresponsible breeding programs will continue to crop up everywhere. As long as you can sell a French Bull Dog puppy for $5,000, I think you can talk to good breeders until you’re blue in the face. And I love the OFA, you’re bringing out a brachycephalic scoring index to try and increase the health of the offspring.
But I think it does come down to trying to sway the public and just having conversations exactly to your point around, “Hey, I’m thinking getting a new dog,” if you have the chance to intervene and to have a conversation about the dogs that people are thinking about getting and people loving the personalities, again, just encourage encouraging them to look at the data, to know what they’re getting into and having that emotional, financial and just overall management aspect of having a brachycephalic dog with BOAS or with Brachycephalic Ocular Syndrome. It’s a lot for people and sometimes they don’t know what they’re getting into. So I think if they see the personality, there are other breed that we could suggest that have similar personalities that don’t have some of the same problems.
Dr. Andy Roark:
That absolutely makes sense. I’m going to see if I can run down the OFA brachycephalic scoring index, and I’ll also put links to the white papers in the show notes here. Are there other resources that you really like that you’d point out?
Dr. Jules Benson:
I think the other side of this is that we’re trying to build this base of evidence-based medicine really to try and drive special care decisions. So I know that Dr. Emily Tincher came on and talked to you about that a little while ago and encourage people to check out that episode. But really, we can go to the spectrumofcare.com, which we’ll put in the show notes, but I think that that gives a really good insight as to another reason why we’re doing this. It really is about education boundaries, but it’s also about what are the best courses of treatment. So looking for the evidence base around things like early surgical intervention, for example.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I think that’s fantastic. I’ll definitely link that up as well. Jules, where can people find you online? Where can they follow you?
Dr. Jules Benson:
LinkedIn is where I do most of my damage these days and people are welcome. Anything that we have that’s new, and I think it’s worth saying that I think the white papers, we love the work we’re doing there and we love the stuff we’re translating into the space, but great to keep an eye on us. I think later this year we’ll be making that more accessible for more breeds, more veterinary healthcare teams and more pet families. So we’re really excited about the work that we’re doing and what’s coming down the pipe, so watch the space.
Dr. Andy Roark:
That’s fantastic to hear. All right, thanks so much for being here. Guys, thanks for tuning in and listening. Everybody take care of yourselves.
Dr. Jules Benson:
Thanks Andy.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And that is our episode, guys. That’s what I got. I hope you enjoyed it. Thanks to Jules for being here. Thanks again for Nationwide for making this episode possible. Guys, take care of yourselves. Be well. I’ll talk to you soon.
