Podcast

Struggling to get pet owners on board with dental care for their pets? In this episode of The Cone of Shame Veterinary Podcast, host Dr. Andy Roark tackles this common challenge with the help of board-certified veterinary dentist and oral surgeon Dr. Amy Thomson, aka “Toothy Thompson.” Together, they discuss practical strategies to inspire pet owners to adopt home dental care routines that actually get done. From realistic toothbrushing techniques to advice on leveraging treats and routines, Dr. Thomson shares actionable tips and communication strategies tailored for veterinary teams to use in exam rooms. Whether you’re a veterinarian or practice manager, this episode delivers the tools you need to improve client compliance, enhance pet oral health, and ultimately support longer, healthier lives for pets. Don’t miss this motivating and insightful conversation!

You can also listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, Soundcloud, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts!

LINKS

At Home Dental Care Handout

American Veterinary Dental College: https://avdc.org/

Amy Thomson IG: https://www.instagram.com/toothy.thomson/

Amy Thomson website: https://toothythomson.ca

Dr. Andy Roark Charming the Angry Client Team Training Course: https://drandyroark.com/charming-the-angry-client/

Dr. Andy Roark Swag: drandyroark.com/shop

All Links: linktr.ee/DrAndyRoark

ABOUT OUR GUEST

Dr. Amy Thomson is a specialist in small animal dentistry & oral surgery. She began her career in small animal general practice and while challenging at times she was fortunate to gain a great deal of dentistry CE. The more she learned the more her passion for dentistry grew as well as a desire to become a specialist. While Dr. Amy enjoys all aspects of clinical practice as Board Certified Veterinary DentistTM, she also very much enjoys providing continuing education for all veterinary professionals in small animal general practice. There is a huge demand for veterinary dentistry and oral care, and she wants to support general practice teams to provide the best care to their patients. 

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Andy Roark: Welcome, everybody, to the Cone of Shame veterinary
podcast. I am your host, Dr. Andrew Roark. I am here with board
certified dentist and oral surgeon Dr. Amy Thompson, or Toothy
Thompson, as she’s known online on her socials. I am talking to her
about home dental care that actually gets done. I’m on this kick right now
about really thinking deeply about how to advise pet owners to increase
the lifespan and quality of life of their pets.
Like, if I could make a program that would give you the highest chance
possible of having your dog or cat live to age 25. What program would
that be? And obviously, it’s going to have a nutrition component. It’s
going to have sort of an orthopedic wellness fitness component. It’s
going to have a dental health component.
And so that’s what I talked to Amy about is how do I communicate this to
pet owners? What would you put into a program like this? And again, the
emphasis here is not on what’s ideal. What can we actually get pet
owners to do and she has strong thoughts and so that’s what we talked
about today It is a good episode.
It’s really it’s motivating. It makes me want to jump back in there and
work with my dog And I think i’m probably going to do that. I think i’m I
may even film it and see how it goes So anyway, that’s kind of where my
head’s at. This is a great fun episode It’ll inspire you get you talking
about dentistry again.
Let’s get into this episode
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: This is your show. We’re glad you’re here. We
want to help you in your veterinary career. Welcome to the Cone of
Shame with Dr. Andy Roark.
Dr. Andy Roark: Welcome to the podcast. Dr. Amy Thompson. Thanks
for being here.
Dr. Amy Thomson: Hi. Thanks so much for having me
Dr. Andy Roark: back.
I love having you back. You are such a joy to talk to. You just have this
infectious energy. It’s, it’s why you are growing such a nice little

presence on social media. Your passion and enthusiasm for dentistry
just comes through.
You’re one of those people who has the ability to I want to say infect, but
yeah, infect other people with your enthusiasm. Like I feel. excited and
sort of inspired about, about dentistry and what’s possible after I talked
to you. And I just, I really think it’s a gift that you have. And so I like to
keep that medicine fun and upbeat and I like to get sort of reenergized.
And I think that one of the gifts that you have is that you are able to sort
of instill this energy into other people. And so anyway, I appreciate that
you make time to come and talk with us.
Dr. Amy Thomson: Oh my gosh, you’re so sweet. Thank you so much.
That means so much. I just, I love teeth. I’m excited about it, and I’m
excited to see our colleagues get excited about it.
Dr. Andy Roark: I told you this when we first started chatting before,
before I hit record on the podcast here, but I’ll say it again, the thing I
think I, one of the things I really admire about you, I think is so great
about you and your story is that you were a general practitioner with not
a particularly great level of interest in dentistry and then there as a
doctor, this wasn’t picked up in vet school, you sort of started to fall in
love with this piece of that medicine and you were able to go back into a
residency and really make this your life.
And there’s so many vets and technicians that I talked to or see who at
some point come to feel kind of stuck in basic general practice. And I
just I love to see people like you and try to hold up people like you who
did general practice, liked it just fine, but then decided to, Make it into
something different you found something that you loved and decided to
do more of that And you were really able to kind of bend the profession
to your will and kind of make for yourself what you wanted to have And
so I just think that’s an important part of your background as we start to
talk about this because the other thing I always like to talk about with
you really is communication to pet owners and the fact that When you’re
a specialist, you see a certain type of pet owner, and maybe that’s not
what you see as a general practitioner, but, but you have that
experience talking to GP clients. And so I really think that you’re a
uniquely wonderful resource here. So anyway that’s kind of what, why I
sort of reached out to you. I’ve got this, I’ve got this wild idea, Amy, and
I’m really getting into this idea of longevity in pets.

I really am starting to think about. What could I do if I was a pet owner to
increase the likelihood of my dog living to be 20? Or 25, or 30. And I
think about this because, I’m just being transparent, I’m not getting
younger myself, and my parents are getting older and things like that.
And so I’ve been doing some reading on human longevity and things
that that are helpful in, in helping people have not just quality of life, but
quantity of life.
And I see so many parallels in pets. And as I’m thinking about this and I
say, I would like to advise pet owners as their veterinarian, I would like to
be able to guide them or at least support them in the idea. Let’s make
your dog live 20 years. And so dental health has got to be a part of that.
Like we know that weight control and dental health are probably and
behavior are probably the three big things that really impact longevity for
pets.
I think that’s probably the things that are most in our control. And so
what I wanted to talk with you about today is what’s really feasible for pet
owners as far as home dental care? Because I, you know, I’m in the
exam room and I’m talking to them and they’re, and it always comes up.
It always comes up when you say your pet needs to get their teeth
cleaned and they go, Oh, well, what could I do at home? And that’s a
whole different thing. But it’s a whole different thing. But what if I
empower them to What can we do better at home? What can we talk to
them about as far as home health care that they could start at an at a
young age to really try to increase their pets quality of life and quantity of
life.
And so let me sort of pause here for a second and sort of hand this over
to you and say, Amy, when we talk about home dental care. How
optimistic are you here? And, and, and what is sort of your approach to
this? Because I know that, you know, the absolute best practices, but
also I’m sort of reaching out to you because of the pragmatism that you
have about what will they actually do?
And so I don’t want to give them a presentation that they just politely
smile through going. I’m not going to do any of this. So help me sort of
get started with, with that approach.

Dr. Amy Thomson: Yeah, for sure. And I’m so eager to talk about this.
And I think it’s funny, and I enjoy it. I was very honest when you reached
out, like, let’s talk about dental home care that owners will
Dr. Andy Roark: We’ll actually do.
Dr. Amy Thomson: the subtext to that is, not toothbrushing. And I think
I wrote back like, totally pleased to, but we will talk about
Dr. Andy Roark: But we’re going to talk about toothbrush today.
Dr. Amy Thomson: We’re going to talk about toothbrushing. And I think,
It can go back to that conversation of, all over here, we need, you know,
we’ve got gingivitis, I’m concerned, we need to do a cleaning, and, you
know, we start talking about that and the expense of that, and that’s
something we need to do, but what can we do to preserve that health or
maintain that health as long as possible?
And I mean, sometimes just, being frank and honest with owners of,
listen, tooth brushing, there’s nothing better. If there was anything better,
we’d be doing it for our health. I just broach that and just say, I know you
are thinking this isn’t gonna happen, or a lot of owners are like, yeah, I
tried, he hates it, it doesn’t go well.
I’m like, great, I’m so glad you tried. May I ask what didn’t work? And I
would say 99 times out of a hundred, the owners will say, Oh, they’re
chewing on the toothbrush and they’re like spitting it out of their mouth.
And I’m like, okay, tip number one, you’re going to like, so my tip number
one is that don’t brush your pet’s teeth.
Like you brush your own teeth. And I think that that’s something really
important to acknowledge. We’re all brushing our teeth every day. We’re
doing a pretty good job at it. So naturally, if we’re just being told Okay,
brush your dog’s teeth, we’re going to do it the same way we do our
own. Which makes sense.
I will say, listen, brushing every surface of your pet’s teeth, The reality of
that happening daily is about 0. 1 percent chance because they don’t
want anything in their mouth. They’re like, this is weird. We don’t want it
in there. Their tongue is being hit the roof of their mouth. It’s not really
that pleasant.

We do it because we know that we need to, but they don’t know the
benefit of it. So I actually say, I would love you to brush all the surface of
the teeth. And that is what I would call like super advanced gold
standard brushing. But let’s just talk about being consistent, like with
anything in life, learning a language, training for a marathon.
It’s more about consistency than what you’re actually doing. And so I say
I’m right handed. So take your left hand, make an L and just wrap it
around their little muzzle. Just soft, like no firm, or not white, not linear,
just enough to encourage them to keep their teeth clenched. And then I
take my toothbrush, or I’ll start with a finger, and then I just stick it in their
cheek pouch, so they can keep their mouth closed, and I just rub the
outside surfaces of their teeth.
And we’ll do that in the exam room. I’ll get in there with a finger. I won’t
use a toothbrush. And I’ll just say like four to five swipes back and forth.
And most dogs and cats for that matter, that are just like, hell no, they
will tolerate pretty okay. And then the owners have this moment of like,
Oh, well that wasn’t terrible.
And I’m like, you know, this is the goal. The goal is to get the brushing
back and forth. But if you can just start touching a tooth, and then giving
them a treat, which is tip number two. Cats don’t get cavities. Less than
5 percent of dogs get cavities. I’ve treated two dogs with cavities in the
last year.
Very rare. So unlike you and I, where we’re going to eat and then brush,
you can actually brush and then feed them. And I don’t know about you,
Andy, but I’m very food motivated. So,
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah,
Dr. Amy Thomson: if I’m going to get my meal or a tasty snack
afterwards, after repetitions, you know, like four or five, 20 repetitions,
our pets are smart.
They know where the treat bowl is. They know when treat time comes.
As long as we keep it positive, keep it short, keep it positive. They tend
to be like is it really that bad? I get the treat afterwards. So I really like to
talk to owners about those being my two main tips is focus on the
outside, make it positive.

I mean, some pets, very few, are not food motivated, but I’ve had, like, a
cat owner use the cat loves being brushed. Okay? Just touch a little
tooth, brush, brush, brush, touch a little, and work up to that.
Dr. Andy Roark: I like it. That’s awesome. It’s funny. It matches up what
I was just thinking today because I was, I was out walking Skipper and
he is, he’s super treat motivated. It’s just really funny. It took me an
embarrassingly long time to figure out how treat motivated he was and
that he’s a wonderfully compliant dog.
As long as I have treats in my pocket and you know, and It doesn’t have
to be anything extreme for, you know, for him, like the little crunchy low
calorie milk bones. He goes nuts for
Dr. Amy Thomson: Mm hmm.
Dr. Andy Roark: This is not a big lift, but boy, I fought a lot of battles. I
didn’t need to if I had just gone heavier on the treats at the very
beginning.
Dr. Amy Thomson: Yeah. Yeah, and it’s you know, we’ll show them in
the exam room Like this is ultimately what I want to get to but like you’re
not gonna start, you know You’re not gonna just put on the shoes and
run the half marathon, right? you’re gonna start by like walking around
the block and then maybe Jogging for one minute walking like so we’re
gonna have to build but the biggest key is consistency So like keeping it
relatively positive if that means just touching a tooth and they get a
cookie Great because we’re building on that.
This isn’t so bad. This is a positive And yeah, I mean I think I’ve heard
before it takes 21 days to build a habit. So like we need to, we need to
commit some repetitions here put some reps in, but it’s amazing, you
know, like my technician’s cat will come and wait to have his teeth
brushed when it gets to be, cause they know it’s dinnertime and like, this
is a routine.
We do the tooth brushing and then we get our bowl of food. And I’ve had
pets in the past that we did it at bedtime. And so anytime after 8 PM, you
go in the bathroom, the dog’s following you. And they’re like, okay, I’m
ready. You know, we can really use that, Pavlovian dogs, really, that
classical conditioning to our advantage.

Dr. Andy Roark: this a lot. I can honestly see this working into my
routine.
One of the things you said that I really loved is just the way you can turn
a phrase. When you say, you know, if there was something better than
brushing teeth, then we would do it ourselves. And I was like, oh, that’s a
really good phrase.
Amy, how do you give the value proposition before we’re talking about
dental disease or periodontal disease. You know what I mean? So what
I’m saying is I saw, okay, just as an example, let’s say that I saw a 16
week old puppy slash kitten yesterday, and they came in, everybody’s
happy they’re playful, they have, they still have their puppy and kitten
teeth How do I start talking at that point so that the pet owners hear me,
right?
It’s much easier to wait until they have periodontal disease and say, ah,
yeah we don’t want to have to clean these teeth as super often. Let’s get
them clean and then you can start doing this so that we can hold this off.
And there’s sort of, they’ve experienced some pain.
They’ve kind of seen what intervention looks like. And so I feel like
you’ve, At least I feel like I have more leverage to have that conversation
but that’s not ideal. Really, I would love to get them started when there’s
not a fleck of tartar on any of the teeth. And, you know what I mean?
And not wait until we’ve had this sort of like car crash and then we’re
like, Oh, well, let’s not do that again. So how do you, do you have any
good ways or phrases to sort of try to sell them on the value of making
this commitment? When there’s no periodontal disease, there’s no sign
of disease at all.
Dr. Amy Thomson: Yeah, no, that’s great. And obviously, maybe not
obviously, but you know, this, the earlier we’re teaching our pets, the
better, because, as babies, they don’t really know quote unquote yet
what is totally normal. So that whole, you can’t teach an old dog new
trick. I don’t agree with. We can teach them anything, but certainly
starting younger is better.
Prevention or maintenance is definitely better than treatment. I mean, it’s
been many, many years, but I, but back in the day when I was in general
practice and it’s hard to fit everything in a puppy visit, but I would just

say, you know, everything’s looking good. And I would at least make
sure there was a conversation like, okay, we’ve got, baby teeth.
We’re starting normally around 16 weeks. We’re starting to see some
adult teeth come in. And so at least have the conversation of like, I was
told many, many years ago, talk through your physical exam. Cause if
you’re just doing your physical exam, owners aren’t realizing how much
we’re picking, like we’re looking the mouth, we’re checking the gums,
we’re checking the teeth, the occlusion, things like that.
And so I’d talk through it like, really happy occlusions, normal, like We
don’t need to address anything with the teeth now, which is wonderful.
Certainly, you know, just mentioning, you know, I really am about
preventative care, really want to keep fluffy as healthy as we can moving
forward.
And so the num, the number one and number two disease that we’re
going to deal with is going to be periodontal disease and obesity. So let’s
really talk about that. So like with cats, meal feeding, even dogs meal
feeding, so then we can better assess what they’re eating, how much
they’re eating, if they need to go on a diet.
It’s something we can do if you end up having more than one pet in the
house, we can manage that. So we’ll talk about meal feeding and then
the other thing I would say is now is the time to get them used to tooth
brushing. Because it’s going to take a while. for you both to get proficient
at it, for them to accept it, for you to remember every day.
And so like the baby teeth are just like our trainers, right? Like they are
going to exfoliate most of them. Some of them will be persistent. We’ll
address those at spay and neuter, but most of them are going to fall out.
So if it takes us a couple of months to get it figured out, then once the
adult teeth come in and now we’re primed and ready.
And I will always say, tooth brushing is not going to remove the need for
regular professional cleaning like we brush our teeth multiple times a
day We still go to the dentist But shifting away from like avoiding
professional care and shifting that to keeping it them healthy longer, less
extractions, which means less surgical time, which means less
anesthesia time, less overall costs, less risk not needing to heal.

Like I would absolutely like my heaven is All pets get their teeth brushed,
they get professional cleanings once a year, and we’re not dealing with
extractions. So then the day after they have their teeth cleaned, we’re
back to brushing instead of taking a break and allowing that plaque and
calculus to build up.
And so, and then with my really tiny dogs, I’ll say, you know, like,
unfortunately I’d love to see a shift. I hope in my career I’ll see a shift, but
because home care hasn’t been a huge part of veterinary medicine
when it comes to dental home care cause there’s just so many things to
deal with.
And tooth brushing, everyone’s like, ah, they hate it. They don’t like it.
We’ll buy this treat or whatever. But like 90 percent of toy breed dogs will
have periodontitis by the time they’re one year old which is crazy. And a
lot of owners are like, my pet’s only five. How is this possible?
And I’m like. They’re only five. I mean, they’re doing well. They’re beyond
the, the curve because at a year, sometimes I’ll see puppies come in at
ten months. To have persistent deciduous teeth taken out and they’ve
already got gingivitis. They’ve got enough calculus that they’ve got
gingivitis.
So Sometimes just sharing those facts of it’s not gonna remove the need
For professional care, but it’s gonna decrease the severity of disease
which is gonna then decrease You know the overall anesthesia time the
number of visits the cost is a big one I think is you know, we have to be
transparent That is a big part about professional dental care because it
does require anesthesia to be done appropriately.
I think just trying to focus on, okay, we’re the healthiest. We’re all the
healthiest, generally speaking, when we’re younger. And then while age
isn’t a disease, as we age we’re more likely to develop disease and
periodontitis, periodontal diseases. Unfortunately, number one. But it is
something we can fight with a toothbrush, and it is something if caught
soon enough, we can actually reverse, which I think we’ve talked about.
I really nerd out about that because, you know, once you’ve got a
disease, we’re managing it. But if we’re seeing these patients when
we’ve got gingivitis, but no ligament loss, no bone loss, I Thorough and
thorough, deep cleaning actually will reverse that inflammation and reset

to zero to no disease, which really lights me on fire because that’s, I
think that’s so cool.
Like, normally, once we’ve got a disease, we’re just managing it. So if we
can really work together, I say, like, what I’m gonna do is only one day.
364 is on you, and so I just really want to be a team and keep this mouth
as healthy as possible because, like you said at the intro, like, our oral
health is really the gateway to our entire body and that’s a lot of bacteria,
like a ton of bacteria that sits in that plaque and calculus.
And then once we get inflammation in the gums, we can get that in the
bloodstream, and so, you know, a healthy mouth is a healthy pet.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. Oh, definitely. What do you like? Do you like a,
do you like a toothbrush? Do you like gauze pads? Do you like the finger
brush? Are you neutral? If I’m starting with a dog or a cat from the very
beginning, am I trying to get them to a soft bristle toothbrush? Or are you
okay with the finger, gauze pads, things like that for the long term?
Dr. Amy Thomson: Yeah. I’m a big fan of a toothbrush. It needs to be
soft bristle. Basically all like dog cat toothbrushes are going to generally
be soft bristle. I actually still have, maybe it’s weird. I still have a little
raisins nose, pediatric toothbrush. So pediatric toothbrushes are great
for really small dogs and cats because we want to disrupt that biofilm.
So my worry is if we’re using something that’s not a little bit abrasive, like
we don’t want it super abrasive, but we need something to break up that
film. And then so my worry is sometimes if you can get those really fine, I
think they sell them as like cat toothbrushes. But I use them for small
dogs as well, but like it’s smaller, like I have small hands, but it’s
narrower than my pinky.
And so you can really, and it’s got a long handle, so you can really get
back. So I personally prefer getting to a toothbrush. Now that may start
with like a finger and then a wipe and that kind of thing. But honestly, like
any sort of mechanical debridement of that biofilm is going to be ideal.
But my goal is to get to a toothbrush.
Dr. Andy Roark: that makes sense. Are you worried if you start to
introduce alternatives to toothbrushes, or supplemental tools, right?
When we start talking about shoes and things, are you seeing this as a

good thing to introduce in the conversation? Or are you worried that you
are giving them alternatives to the toothbrush?
For example, if I say to you, Hey Hey, pet owner, I’ve got this thing that I
want you to do. And you go, well, I’m not going to do it. And I say here’s
a thing that’s significantly easier. Did I just let them completely off the
hook for the first thing? And, and I don’t know, do you have that thought?
Are you okay? You know they’re going to bring it up. They’re going to
say, Well, what else? Or, what do you think about these rinses? Or, I do
antlers. Do you like antlers? They’re going to say those things. You know
they’re going to say them, you know? I heard, I got antlers yesterday.
Yesterday, I got
Dr. Amy Thomson: My gosh. It kills me, it kills me the antlers. Yeah, so
I think, I think that unfortunately and again as it, like, all I do is teeth,
right? So, like, I have 30 minute consults to talk about treatment and I
sneak home care in, but we also do a lot more home care discussion. I
have complimentary recheck visits.
One, because I want to make sure they’re healing well. I want to hear
how they’re doing and then really delve into home care. Like, once I’ve
done this treatment, okay, but like, what are we doing? So I would say I
definitely have more time than general practitioners. However, I do think
that it’s well, I’m not going to brush.
And it’s just sort of like, okay. but we haven’t taught them how to do it.
Like we haven’t given them the steps. And so they’ve tried most owners
and some will say like, I just, I’m too busy or it’s just not going to work.
And I’m like, okay. But most have tried because they hear what you’re
saying and like, we’re going to try.
And then they do it, quote unquote, the wrong way. And then it doesn’t
work. And then they stop. So I do think, letting them off the hook. I
mean, sometimes it’s letting you off the hook. You have like eight other
things to talk about, but I do think if we can as a team really be focused
on what is the best and sometimes you know, like I said, there’s nothing
better than toothbrushing.
The other thing about toothbrushing is there’s no added calories. Obesity
is a big problem. We don’t have to worry about allergic dogs or cats or
things like that. And the cost is Very minimal, right? Some of these

chews can really get up in cost. So not only is it the gold standard for
health wise, but there’s a lot of positives to that.
So I think mentioning that and then also, I’m game to talk about other
things because We’re not perfect. Have I missed days of toothbrushing?
Yes, and like adding other things on can be really helpful You know if
you’re traveling and whoever’s pet sitting can’t, there’s lots of reasons So
I would say that I like to base my home care around daily toothbrushing,
but I’m all for other things However, we have to be very careful about
what we expect out of those.
So a rinse is not going to mechanically debride the plaque. It’s just isn’t
right. It’s not mechanical. So the rinse may decrease. minerals calcifying
onto the plaque to make calculus, but it’s not getting rid of the plaque. So
if you have plaque, you’ll always have calculus. If you’re getting rid of
plaque, you can’t get calculus.
and then like with chews, okay, those are, those are mechanical, but
those are only helpful for teeth used to chew. So their canine teeth, they
don’t chew with. So like, we’re not getting a benefit from the chew on
those teeth. So I think being very, and acknowledging and I will kind of
spell that out of, what are the pros and cons?
Because I see a lot of stuff being like as good as toothbrushing. And
then you read in the font, it’s like as good as brushing twice a week,
which is because calculus develops within 24 hours. So if you’re doing it
every three days, you’ve got two days worth of calculus that you can’t
brush off.
So you’re behind the eight ball. So unfortunately, Pet care is a huge
market. It’s a huge market, right? It’s overwhelming, even for me going
into the pet store and seeing all the things that are like good for their
teeth. And then you see something like antlers, which is like actually
terrible.
It’s going to cause teeth to break just based on physics and anatomy
alone. So it’s hard for pet owners. So I do think, when and if we can find
the space and the time and our appointments, whether it’s us directly or
other veterinary professionals on our team, to at least acknowledge,
because they’re gonna go find those things and be like, yeah, they said
toothbrushing, but I can’t do it.

And this says as good as toothbrushing. So like I’m gonna just swap that
out. So I do think just acknowledging that like, I’m all for rinses and diets
and chews and things like that. They’re just they’re not going to get to
the same point as tooth brushing. So I think if we can supplement use
those things to supplement i’m all for it.
Dr. Andy Roark: Potentially stupid question. When you see, when you
see, when you see dogs that they have dental calculus builds up and
gingivitis on their canines but then you don’t see a lot of calculus or
gingivitis on their premolars, I just kind of assume that that was a weird
thing or a part of their mouth anatomy, something like that.
Are those dogs potentially that are doing some like dental chews or
things like that? And maybe that’s why they’re not getting it this buildup
on premolars, but we’re seeing up on their canines. I guess I hadn’t, I’ve
seen a lot of those dogs where I go, I don’t really see it on the premolars,
but definitely on the canines.
is that an idea that might bear weight? Or is it like, no, Andy, probably,
probably not. That’s probably just, just thumb luck.
Dr. Amy Thomson: No, absolutely. I think that’s the case like I i’ve had
many cases where you know, we look at the front of the mouth and the
incisors and canines are not looking so hot and then I pull back and i’m
like Looking pretty good back here. Looking pretty good because
generally our calculus pattern in our canines and feline patients is the
most is going to be on the maxillary fourth premolar because our salivary
Ducts empty there and so they’re getting the most saliva the most
minerals in those saliva So like all the teeth are pretty evenly going to
get plaque build up and I will tell owners, you know, it’s like when you
wake up and you have that like weird, slimy, fuzzy sweater feeling.
Like we all get that. Like we get it, our pets get it. And then if we don’t
brush that off, it’s actually the minerals in our own saliva that mineralize.
And so we should see naturally more calculus on these maxillary fourth
premolars because they’re the first one to be bathed. And so when I
really dive into it and I’m talking more to owners, it’s the, I do see, and
sometimes it’s not super obvious, but like I had a case last week where I
was like, Things look real good back here, like really good in a small
breed dog, which always I’m like Did you get an anesthesia free
cleaning?

Is there something like that? That’s one of the first things when I don’t
see a lot of calculus in these little guys, but no, this little guy was on a
dental diet, got dental chews, but tooth brushing, they were really
struggling with. And then we worked through like how we can get on top
of that.
And so for now, because we do have some gingivitis, I say like, let’s not
get get in there hardcore in case we cause a little bit irritation and then
it’s painful and then we, Lose traction. So what they’re doing between
our appointment and coming in for a cohat is they’re just going to focus
on like touching teeth lifting lips, just getting more comfortable with the
mouth being handled.
But yeah, I’ve definitely seen that in some, in some patients that are
really doing the dental diets and the chews. And then we’re seeing more
periodontitis up front where those chews aren’t helping because those
teeth aren’t used to chew.
Dr. Andy Roark: that makes sense. It always stands out to me. I see
him fairly regularly. I mean, not not nearly as often as, you know, just
Funk everywhere, but I do see him sometimes where I I, you know, you
start you do that first look and you see the incisors and the canines and
you go, Ooh. And you look in the back and you go, Oh, well, that’s much
better than I thought it would be.
So anyway Amy, you are amazing. Thank you for being here. Where do
you like to send people if they’re looking for resources? I know that you
are actually making a lot of educational resources always for vet
professionals, but also for pet owners. Tell me about that. Tell me where
people can find it.
Dr. Amy Thomson: everything for me started a few years ago on
Instagram, and so I like to do kind of short, fun, try and be entertaining
but if you’re looking for something more got some more grit to it the meat
and potatoes of things, as they say I just relaunched my website, which
I’m really excited about.
It’s a work in progress, but we have both a pet parent side and a
veterinary professional side, and so we’re working on keeping them Like
short and sweet, but like one page handouts of things like
malocclusions, fractured teeth anesthesia free cleanings. That’s been a

big one. The reason we need anesthesia to appropriately clean and and
manage your pet’s oral health.
What is a cohat? So just trying to like support all of you and I’ve asked
Many times on social media what you all are looking for because I know
it’s a lot in that exam room And so you’re touching on these points and
then you know You don’t get the same amount of time to talk to them as
I do So just really trying to to have something like tangible that you can
either kind of print off and give to an owner or you can where you can
send them to that PDF document to get a little bit more information.
We’ve got some pictures in there. I’m very visual learner. So some
pictures in there to just sort of help round out or, supplement the
information that you’re giving your pet parents.
Dr. Andy Roark: Cool. Thank you so much. Thanks for being here,
Amy. Guys, thank you for tuning in and listening. Take care of
yourselves, everybody. We’ll talk to you later.
And that’s it. That’s what I got for you. Thanks for being here. Thanks to
Amy for being here. Gang, if you like this episode, send it to a friend.
Share it with your staff. Let’s get more people. Talking about dentistry in
the exam room. I think it’s just an important thing to do. Again, it’s about
increasing the quality and the quantity of the pets lives that we serve.
I think this is an important part of it. Gang, take care of yourselves. Be
well. I’ll talk to you later on.

Dr. Doug Mader joins us to talk about all sorts of zoonotic diseases. Together, Dr. Doug Mader and Dr. Andy Roark on the Cone of Shame Veterinary Podcast to discuss the zoonotic diseases found in exotic animals but also your common cat and dogs. They explore the history of salmonella in the pet trade, the risks of psittacosis from birds, and the potential for parasites like the dwarf tapeworm to infect humans. This episode is packed with valuable information for veterinary professionals and pet owners alike. Don’t miss Dr. Mader’s insights on protecting both animal and human health. Gang, let’s get into this episode!

You can also listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, Soundcloud, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts!

LINKS

Dr. Doug Mader: https://www.dougmader.com/

The Vet at Noah’s Ark: https://www.dougmader.com/order

Dr. Know It All Card Game: https://drandyroark.com/product/dr-know-it-all-card-game/

Dr. Andy Roark Swag: drandyroark.com/shop

All Links: linktr.ee/DrAndyRoark

ABOUT OUR GUEST

Dr. Doug Mader is a triple board-certified veterinary specialist and has been a veterinarian for over three decades. He is an internationally recognized speaker, has written three best-selling medical textbooks and numerous book chapters and scientific publications, and has had long standing pet columns in the Long Beach Press Telegram, Reptiles magazine, and the Key West Citizen. Dr. Mader is the recipient of the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service Award, the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine Alumni Achievement Award, and the Fred L. Frye Lifetime Achievement Award for Veterinary Medicine, and is a seven-time winner of the North American Veterinary Community Speaker of the Year award and a four-time winner of the Western Veterinary Conference Educator of the Year award. He is also a fellow of the Royal Society of Medicine in the UK. Dr. Mader practiced in California for many years, but today lives and works in the Florida Keys.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Andy Roark: Welcome everybody to the Cone of Shame Veterinary Podcast. I am your host, Dr. Andy Roark. Guys, I got, oh, such a great episode for you. They’re one of my favorite episodes in a while. I know I say every episode is a great episode. They generally are pretty darn good episodes. I really have been blessed to have great guests come on, but today I’ve just got one that I really, really love.

It’s my friend, Dr. Doug Mader. He is a exotic animal veterinarian. You’ll hear me gush about him when he comes on, but he is such a storyteller. He’s talking about zoonosis today, man. If this is how zoonotic diseases were taught in vet school, I would have been a straight A student in parasitology and in zoonosis.

It was such a fun episode. We talk about sewage turtles and typhoid mary and one eyed cold and, and weight loss tapeworms and just all kinds of incredible stories. On our way to discussing real zoonotic disease considerations when we’re seeing exotic pets. So anyway, guys, this is such a wonderful blend of practical, pragmatic medicine that’s great for doctors, technicians assistants, pet owners, and also just really interesting facts and stories that just make it so I could just keep talking to Doug all day. Anyway, I’ve gushed and swooned enough. Let’s get into this episode with Dr. Doug Mader.

Kelsey Beth Carpenter: This is your show. We’re glad you’re here. We want to help you in your veterinary career. Welcome to the Cone of Shame with Dr. Andy Roark. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Doug Mader. Thank you for being here, my friend.

Dr. Doug Mader: Hi Andy, it’s always a pleasure. I appreciate the honor to be invited back.

Dr. Andy Roark: You are so kind and humble. You’ve been a mentor of mine for a long time. You’re someone I’ve always respected, one for your work in vet medicine, and two you are an accomplished writer. Your book The Vet and Noah’s Ark is one that I always recommend when people say, what are your favorite books about veterinary medicine, especially for pet owners?

You talk about being an exotic animal vet in Los Angeles during the time of the LA riots in the nineties, which I remember you write basically in a series of short stories. And so I just, I always enjoy your stuff. It’s stuff I can sit down and read a story or two. And so anyway, I appreciate you being here.

You are triple boarded. You were mostly known for exotic animal medicine. You have written, I think, three textbooks. You have won The Speaker of the Year Award at a VMX probably more times than you can count. And at Western, you were just such an accomplished speaker and presenter.

You are so matter of fact. And I think that’s something I’ve always really admired about you. And it’s something that I, as a presenter have really tried to take away, is that you’re very matter of fact, you very much get down to what veterans actually see and your directive. Look out for this make sure you’re doing that make sure you don’t mess up this way. And I just I you are someone I I deeply enjoy learning from and so i’ve been watching I’ve just watched what you put out and what you write and things i’ve seen you writing recently about some zoonotic disease is stuff that has sort of come up and I wanted to sort of bring you and ask you About it because this is something that is sort of a hot topic.

I think a lot of it comes from leptospirosis recently. ACVIM just did a position statement in 2023 about leptospirosis and zoonosis. And so it kind of put zoonosis back on my radar. And then I was looking and reading from you, and you were talking about zoonosis in a very practical way that I don’t think a lot of people think about.

And so let me just kind of start, stop there before we get into specifics and sort of open it up and say, zoonotic disease, what are veterinarians sort of missing? What are the things that you think get lost in these conversations? 

Dr. Doug Mader: All right, that’s a super good point and thank you for the kind words in the intro. I appreciate that. For the sake of getting back to the very, very basics for those of you that are listeners, a zoonotic disease is a disease that people can catch from animals. You know, one of the classic diseases that we’ve all learned about since we were little teeny kids is something like rabies and rabies, in certain parts of the country is a serious, serious issue. Because it lives endemically in certain wildlife populations like raccoons, foxes, skunks, and things like that. And, there are certain places where people are allowed to keep those as pets. Fortunately, it’s not a huge issue as a zoonotic disease here in this country.

But, it’s one of the, I think it’s, it is, if it’s not number one, it’s in the top few killers of zoonotic diseases in people in the entire world. You know, and I just got back from Africa, and it is a huge, huge issue there. Because they don’t vaccinate down there and prevent it. But, that brings up the point of zoonotic diseases about other pets that we work with.

And, you know, I do a lot of work with exotics. And there’s a lot of misconceptions. So giving me this platform to share some of those with our listeners, I think is really important. So we can clarify some really important things. And also I want to share this with you because I know there’s a lot of veterinarians and veterinary assistants and nurses out there.

And you need to be aware of this because for legal reasons in today’s country, if you don’t cross all your T’s and dot all your I’s and say something incorrectly, it could come back to bite you. So I think one of the big ones that I see a lot of and I’ve actually been involved as an expert witness for the AVMA on a few malpractice cases is salmonella.

And I know you’ve heard about it. You know, it’s, it’s one of those diseases that when you say salmonellosis, the first thing you think of is, oh, reptiles. Okay, and that’s legit because that’s where it kind of came to the forefront and back in the late 60s early I know some of our listeners were born then but it’s important to know where this started. There was a pet store.

They were selling the pet trade sold these little things called penny turtles And I don’t know if you remember, they were

Dr. Andy Roark: I remember yeah, well they used to sell them beside the road like in Florida. You know, they have the little plastic terrariums and the little red ear sliders, right? Yeah.

Dr. Doug Mader: Exactly. And they were selling them across the country in Ben Franklin stores, Crest, Five and Dimes. And they became so popular that foreign countries, especially China, wanted to get, get them. And they were buying them as pets, supposedly as pets. And the interesting thing is how they were raised.

Because they are in such popular demand, these people in Louisiana had these large sewage ponds, where they recycled human waste. And they found that the turtles were thriving in the human sewage ponds and they didn’t have to feed them because the turtles were just eating basically human feces in the sewage ponds.

You can imagine living in a sewage pond, what diseases you’re going to pick up. Well, the big one was salmonellosis. And so they were selling these baby penny turtles all around the country. And back in the early seventies, they were having up to 300, 000 cases a year in children. And finally, in 1975, the USDA got wise and said, hey, wait a minute.

We’re selling baby turtles that are grown up in sewage ponds in the pet trade and kids are getting sick. Duh. You know, what’s wrong with this picture? So in 1975 USDA put a ban on the sale of pet turtles less than four inches in length or any live turtle eggs. And it’s funny because the reason they picked less than four inches of length is because they measured, somebody did a study and they measured the mouth size of children.

And if you’re getting anything bigger than four inches, they wouldn’t be able to put it in their mouth because kids tend to do that well that it worked because it cut the cases of Salmonella way down, but it doesn’t stop the fact that kids still play with the turtle and then eat their peanut butter and jelly sandwich, but it did bring up, you know, and it educated the public about the disease and the fact that they just basically cut out the sale of the baby turtles, pretty much.

I wouldn’t say stop the disease, but stop the problem that they were having. But they were still allowed to export it to China. So that’s still an issue and it was, it’s actually still being done. So that’s, that’s kind of where it all started. And the Association of Reptile and Amphibian Veterinarians, they got together with the CDC and came out with a white paper.

And the white paper states basically that you should just assume that every reptile, not just baby turtles, every reptile carries salmonella. There’s over 2, 400 serotypes of salmonellosis, and there’s been well over 200 documented serotypes that a reptile carries. And basically all 200 plus serotypes that the reptiles carry are potentially zoonotic to humans.

So it’s a legitimate concern. Okay. Now, I don’t want anybody to go out and flush their reptiles down the toilet. That’s the last thing in the world we want to do. So what we want to do is just kind of put it in perspective. I can guarantee you that I have probably had salmonellosis in my career.

I don’t ever remember having it. But, I work with pet turtles, I work with alligators, I work with crocodiles, I work with large tortoises, large sea turtles, and I’m exposed to it on a regular basis. If you’re healthy and immunocompetent most likely if you get salmonella, you’re gonna get diarrhea for two or three days, and usually it’s self limiting, it goes away.

And most of us don’t run to the doctor every time we get diarrhea because we just wait till it clears and it does. And that, you may have had it and it’s that simple. Now, there is an at-risk population and children under 5, the written guidelines are children under 5, seniors over 65 pregnant women, people that are on immunosuppressive drugs like prednisone or chemotherapy, people that have immunosuppressive diseases such as HIV.

They’re much more susceptible to salmonella or any other potential infectious disease. So those groups, what I would encourage them to do, I would never discourage them from keeping them as pets because that human animal bond is priceless. You know, everybody needs that, but I would encourage them to talk to their veterinarian and also talk to their human physician and have your veterinarian’s card with you when you talk to your physician and say, please call my vet and talk to them about it because human doctors.

They just want you to get rid of everything. Oh, you’re on prednisone? Get rid of your bird. Well, I’ve had the bird for 30 years. It’s dangerous. Get rid of it, I’ve had the snake for 25 years. Well, get rid of it. You don’t need to do that. You just need to be educated. The key is, with any of these zoonotic diseases, is hygiene.

You know, you walk into any public restroom in a restaurant and what’s the sign that you see in the mirror in every single restroom?

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah

Dr. Doug Mader: Employees, watch your hands, right? Same common sense. If you have pets at home, and I don’t care if it’s a reptile or something else, and Andy, did you know that dogs carry it, cats carry it, birds can carry salmonella. Cockroaches carry salmonella.

I live down here in the Florida Keys and we have those cute little hermit crabs. Hermit crabs carry salmonella, seagulls carry salmonella. Salmonella, because there’s so many serotypes, is carried by many, many, many different species. And we are potentially susceptible to any one of those. A lot of times, like I said, people will have it and they can carry it and they may not even show signs.

Or if they do, they’re so mild, it doesn’t dawn on them that they’re not feeling good. You know, I think the classic story is Typhoid Mary and she was a food worker and I believe she ended up there. There were like 50 deaths associated with this one person working in a kitchen before they finally figured out that she was the one spreading the disease.

So it is transmitted by fecal oral contamination, so that’s why you’re not supposed to put baby turtles in your mouth. And just like the signs in the restaurants you know, if you’re playing with your pet turtle or your hamster or whatever pet you might have, dog or cat, use common sense, wash your hands before you go and make the peanut butter and jelly sandwich or eat the Kentucky fried chicken that’s finger licking good.

Simple common sense. Other things like we don’t clean out the turtle bowl in the kitchen sink where we prefer human food. Simple, simple things like that can make all the difference in the world. I think people need to realize that. Now, the other thing is too, and this is very important. This is getting more on the technical side for the veterinarians and the veterinary technicians and nurses.

And that is, there’s a really fine line when it comes to a lot of the animals that we see, we deal with. I’m sure you’ve heard of this movement called you know, the, the antibiotic stewardship.

Dr. Andy Roark: Antibiotic stewardship. Yeah. Mm hmm

Dr. Doug Mader: Okay. And the concept is that we don’t want to just throw antibiotics at anything that’s not feeling good because we’re too dumb enough to figure out what it is or we’re too lazy enough to do diagnostics or we think our clients don’t want to spend the money.

We should always offer the five star, the gold, you know, the gold standard. And if the clients can’t do it, then we need to do a workaround. In a perfect world with antibiotic stewardship, you know, we don’t really want to put an animal on an antibiotic if we don’t know what it has because bacteria, and we’re talking about salmonella right now, have an ability to form resistant forms.

And salmonella is notorious for developing antibiotic resistance. Notorious for it. And so we as veterinarians, let’s say, and I’m going to share this case with you because this is an actual case. One of my, one of my cases that I helped the AVMA with, some owner and they had a small child, a five year old child.

They had a pet savannah monitor, which is a kind of a small to medium sized lizard. Really calm and monitored. Very, very friendly and make really good pets. And, the monitor squirms around the house and runs around on the floor. And a little five year old runs around on the floor, plays with the monitor, crawls on his hands and knees, pets the monitor.

And the monitors are great. They make really good pets. And then, sadly the child got sick. As it turns out, the owner had taken the monitor to the veterinarian, and the monitor was having diarrhea. And so, the veterinarian sent the monitor home on a drug called Baytrol, which you know, Enrefloxacin, very commonly used drug in veterinary medicine. The monitor had developed, it turns out, in hindsight, it’s always 20 20, it turned out that the monitor had salmonellosis, and then the child got salmonellosis. But the problem was that the vet never had cultured the monitor, never figured out what it was, they just randomly put him on Baytril.

The monitor developed a sensitivity to the enrofloxacin, which reacts with the ciprofloxacin that they use in humans. And so the child ended up getting salmonellosis from handling the monitor. And when they went to test the child, it actually got meningitis, it got pretty sick. They cultured the CSF and it had fluoroquinolone resistant salmonellosis

Dr. Andy Roark: Wow.

Dr. Doug Mader: So they couldn’t use the ciprofloxacin. So they ended up, I think if I recall the case correctly, they ended up treating it, believe it or not, with IV chloramphenicol. And that’s something that we don’t even, they don’t even learn in school anymore, but the child did fine. It healed up perfectly.

Everything went fine, but the owners turned around and sued the veterinarian because it was determined because they cultured the lizard, they cultured the meningitis and it was the same serotype. So they determined that the child got it from the vet. And of course they sued the vet because the vet put him on an antibiotic that created the resistant bacteria and never once.

Discussed zoonotic diseases with the owner and the five year old child. You can see how that whole thing could have been prevented. Being thorough.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. I get that. Have a conversation. Yeah.

Dr. Doug Mader: yeah, even, even something as simple, and we used to do this all the time was just have handouts, how to care for your pet monitor, how to feed your pet monitor, diseases carried by pet monitor that could potentially affect humans, you know, this is what you should do, and always contact your physician. Little handouts like that, you give to the clients, you document it in the record, clients are given, you know, a new pet handout kit, and all that kind of stuff will protect yourself.

And then if the client turns down the, culture and sensitivity, you can say, well, they were warned and, you know, we told them about potential for resistant organisms. We told them about the potential and the necessity for washing your hands. And they chose to ignore all of our advice, puts it back in their case.

But, and of course, in that situation, the veterinarian did, did lose in, in at the board. It’s an easy thing to prevent. It just takes a tiny bit of effort.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. That’s tough. 

 I have got some huge news. My new card game is out. That’s right. If you are a fan of the last card game that me and my team made, it was called what’s on my scrubs. You’re going to love our brand new card game. It’s called Dr. Know It All. It is a trivia game meant to be played in teams. It’s a mixture of trivia and BS and it is guaranteed to make your team laugh. 

All of the questions are meant to be challenging for your whole team. They are based on the difficulty level of the VTNE exam. So this is the veterinary technician national examination. It is great to play with your veterinarians. It doesn’t need your veterinarians. It can be toned up and down in difficulty. We have a number of different ways to play the game so that if you have a newer team or a team that is learning we can tone the game down very quickly and make it fun and engaging and educational for them. 

And if you have got a bunch of vets that want to go hard in the paint, we can go hard in the paint game to turn up to that level. It’s really flexible that way. 

It is going to be fun and your people are going to enjoy it. It is made to be played in small teams. That’s the team building part. 

Just like regular trivia when you go to the restaurant or the bar and so it is perfect to be played in five minute bursts. 

You can put it at the beginning of your staff meetings just to make people laugh. You could do a couple of rounds of trivia and then get into your business. Or You can just say, Hey guys, we’re going to have a team meeting. We’re just going to do some trivia. 

 And then everybody’s going to leave with a smile on their face. I wanted to make that for you. I had such a great time with our first game. 

I think this game is going to be really fantastic. I think people are going to really love it. Head over to drandyroark.com right now to learn all about it and get your copy sent to either you or your practice. Let’s get. Get back into this episode. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Do you feel like there are other sort of zoonotic diseases that are sort of attributed to exotics that, that maybe unfairly so tied to those species, does that make sense?

Dr. Doug Mader: You know, I think the next one that we see, and I don’t see it as much, I don’t think in general, we see it as much now as we did before when they were, or, you know, I go back a long time and in Southern California, there used to be a lot of birds that were imported and a lot of them were smuggled across the border from Mexico

and we would frequently see Psittacosis. And psittacosis goes by a bunch of different names. Psittacosis is caused by Chlamydia Psittaci. And in humans, it’s called Psittacosis if the person gets it from a psittacine, like a macaw. It’s called Ornithosis if they get it from something like a dove.

So the name changes depending on the origin of the disease, but it’s the same disease. And it’s a bacterium called Chlamydia Psittaci. And oftentimes, you know, there are some species where they don’t really show signs. They don’t show signs that they’re sick. Chickens, ducks a lot of the smaller birds, the passerines, don’t show real signs that they’re sick with psittacosis, whereas some of the larger psittacines, they get the infamous one eyed cold, they call it, or they get the tracheitis, the bronchitis, they can develop pneumonia and psittacosis.

Dr. Andy Roark: Why do they call it the one eyed cold?

Dr. Doug Mader: Because frequently, especially in things like cockatiels. They get conjunctivitis and for some reason it seems to affect one eye, and so the bird will be there and have a real swollen eye and the other eye will look normal. And so the breeders nicknamed it the one eyed colt. So that’s where that came from.

And again, oftentimes some of these birds are carriers. And, you can get it fairly casual contact and it’s spread through the feces that are dried out and then aerosolized, or it’s spread through things like feather dander. So if you have a bird that’s fluffing up and preening and, and Fluffs itself and dander flies everywhere and you inhale it.

It’s spread via the lungs and there’s even some belief that it can be spread possibly by fecal oral contamination If you’re cleaning cages from birds that are sick and then you contaminate yourself that way But the big thing is just a respiratory component to it. So you know again, that’s reasonably easy to test for. There are ELISAs, fluorescent antibody tests, PCR tests, of course cultures that can be done.

They can run up a fairly good size bill if you do all those different tests. But I, I strongly recommend that anybody that gets a new bird make sure that when they buy the bird they get it with a vet warranty that, okay, you have five days to take it to your veterinarian and have it tested.

And psittacosis is certainly one of the things that’s readily, easily testable. And I think every bird should be tested for it. And again, fortunately the rules have changed. You don’t see as much imports anymore. You know, where I used to see probably two or three cases a week back in Southern California, now it’s, it’s not that common.

If I see one a month, that’s pushing it. Now, some of the big bird vets may see more, but I still see quite a few birds and it’s not that common. It’s one of those diseases in humans. That if you get it, most humans, again, if you’re in the immunocompetent group, which means you’re healthy, you might get the chills or a little cough or the sniffle or a head cold.

And then self limiting, but if you’re in one of the at risk groups, it could turn into fulminant pneumonia and potentially be lethal. So it’s nothing to no, no, no joke intended. Nothing to sneeze at. Don’t take it lightly. It’s a serious consideration. So especially when you’re dealing with birds from an unknown source, Oh, Hey, you know, I’ve got this bird I’m selling out of my trunk. Come in and look at…

Dr. Andy Roark: Right. Yeah, the old swapmeat bird. Yeah.

Dr. Doug Mader: Oh, back in the days, man, when they, when they had the swap meets and the birds are coming from Mexico, they would paint them. And I would not, not uncommonly, I would see these Amazons come in and they would be painted pink or they’d be painted a light purple, or even one day I had one come in, it was spray painted gold and people would buy these birds.

Why in the world they would buy something like that? I have no idea, but they would.

Dr. Andy Roark: They would sell spray painted birds? I mean, I, I thought.

Dr. Doug Mader: People did.

Dr. Andy Roark: I, I, I assumed that that would be so toxic to the bird, right? Like they, just the the fumes from paint and things like

Dr. Doug Mader: It is extremely, and don’t try this at home. Please don’t do that, but it’s amazing. how people would see a blue, I mean, a completely blue or completely pink, rare pink bird, parrot from Mexico, and then they would buy it. Absolutely boggled my mind.

Dr. Andy Roark: I saw you writing recently. You’re talking about sort of parasites and exotic animals. Talk to me a little bit about, about the dwarf tapeworm.

Dr. Doug Mader: Oh yeah, that’s another one. Dwarf tapeworm is a, is a tape worm that’s carried mostly in like rats and mice and smaller rodents like that. Hymenolepsis nana, hymenolepsis diminuta, the two common names. But dwarf tapeworm is all you need to know. And it is, it’s infectious to people. Now what’s interesting is that if you have one of these rats, oftentimes you don’t see perglottids in the feces like you do, like in a dog or a cat that has tapeworms and everybody knows that, you know, and the owner comes in with the rice that are in the poop, you don’t see that with this.

So what ends up happening is that people have these pets. Again, they clean their cages. They don’t use common sense. They don’t wash their hands. And then there’s a direct contamination with contaminated feces. Or in the case of like diminuta, they actually have to have an intermediate host, but with nana, there can be direct contamination,

and then people can fecal, oral contamination. The people can get the tapeworms too. Used to be years and years and years ago. It wasn’t true, but this story is true. You could actually go on the catalogs and you could buy tape rooms. And it was a method that people would use for weight loss. They say, well, if you take the tape rooms, you eat them, you would lose your weight.

When you get down to the weight to where you want to be, then you go to see your doctor. They gave you a pill, you kill the tape room, and then boom, you’ve lost the weight and you didn’t have to change your diet. Well, that wasn’t true. It’s not true now, but they used to sell them. And if you Google it, you can actually see the old time ads where people could buy therapeutic tape rooms.

So people that have rats and mice and pets like that, they don’t lose weight. But typically what happens is oftentimes you might get stomach pains, you might get more burrigimus. Sometimes you might develop diarrhea. If you get a heavy enough load of tapeworms, it can certainly cause fever. And if you get sick enough, you’re not going to eat.

So if you don’t eat, you’re going to lose weight, but you don’t lose weight directly because the tapeworms compete with the nutrients, you lose weight because you’re sick with a parasite. Fortunately in humans, it’s. Again, literally taking a pill and just like with the dog and then you, it kills a parasite and it’s gone, but it’s

not super common in purpose bred rats and mice, but if you have a situation where rats that live outside or mice that live outside can get into your food where you store your food and contaminates the food that you feed your pet rat, and certainly it’s a possibility. Some other things that we need to think about mites. There are several species of mites. There’s actually. Documented cases of people getting mites from pet snakes and the mites won’t breed on you because you’re not a definitive host, but they’ll bite you and they’ll suck your blood and suck your lymph and it can cause a nasty rash.

There are mites that of course, everybody’s familiar with sarcoptes and cats, right? and mange that people can get. Rabbits can carry several different species of mites that people can catch. Certainly there’s a lot of lice. Now most lice are very species specific. So if you have a guinea pig that’s covered with lice and the child brings it home or has it, the lice could jump on the person.

But again, they’re highly species specific, so the lice will usually fall off. So just be aware of some of those things. There are other things, we talked about salmonella, but there’s other bacteria too, like campylobacter, can certainly cause diarrhea and that’s carried by a number of different species.

And whereas salmonella, usually if you’re exposed to it 12 to 24 hours, you’re going to show signs. Campy can sometimes it can take two to three days. And so oftentimes the person gets diarrhea and they forgot, Oh yeah, four days ago I played with somebody’s pet hamster. So some of these diseases are a little bit harder to find.

Again, if you look it up, there’s, God, there’s dozens of different types of zoonotic diseases that we can get from our pets. And again, it’s not just exotics, it’s dogs and cats as well.

Dr. Andy Roark: We’re going to run out of time here. Doug, I tell you, I could listen to you tell stories all day. I mean, just sewage turtles, typhoid Mary, the one line gold. It’s amazing. Final thoughts here. Parting words. We, you talked about a lot of different diseases. If there’s one thing that you could sort of stress to veterinarians, nurses assistants.

What would be sort of your your parting thought

Dr. Doug Mader: Andy, that’s a great question. The reason I get up in the morning and I’ve been doing this for four decades is because of the human animal bond. You know, my goal when I get up in the morning is I want to promote and prolong the human animal bond as best as I possibly can. And so here I am, we just spent all this time talking about diseases we can catch from animals.

I don’t want that to scare people because you can get a lot more diseases and get a lot sicker by hanging out with people. Then you can’t with a lot of these animals. How many times have you shaken somebody’s hand, gone to the movies, sit on an airplane, and then you get sick. So don’t be afraid of all these different diseases.

The thing is just be educated, use common sense, good hygiene. I can’t stress that enough. Put up signs in your exam rooms, put up signs in your treatment rooms, wear gloves when appropriate, wash your hands, knock on wood. I’m one of these types of people that rarely, rarely get sick, but I also, one of these people, I probably wash my hands 40, 50 times a day.

Everything I do, I’m washing my hands as soon as I’m done doing it, and that’s a huge key, just to keep from passing on diseases. And anybody that works in the healthcare field, or the animal field in general, I don’t care if you work in a dairy farm, a chicken farm, and a pet store, or a veterinary office, just use common sense.

Wash your hands frequently. Wear gloves when possible. Keep areas disinfected. Don’t mix animal food with people food. Don’t clean animal cages where you make human food. Don’t store animal parts in a human refrigerator where you have human food. Common sense. Which a lot of people lack, but common sense goes a long way.

Dr. Andy Roark: That’s outstanding doug where can people find you online?

Dr. Doug Mader: Oh, I have a website. It’s a real easy one to remember. It’s just Doug mater. com. And from there, if you’re interested in some of my non technical writing My Vet at Noah’s Ark, my novel has done extremely well. I’m very humbled at the reception it’s gotten. It’s won several awards. And that’s available online through my website, or you can go to amazon.

com and get it. I’m also on social media on Facebook and Instagram.

Dr. Andy Roark: Outstanding. Guys, thanks so much for listening everybody. Thanks, to Doug Mader for being here. Take care of yourselves gang We’ll talk to you later on

All right, guys, that’s what I got for you. I hope you enjoyed it. Thanks to Doug Mader for being on because I said this at the beginning to his book The Vet at Noah’s Ark is really a good book. I’ve given it as gifts is it is a neat book for people who think veterinary medicine is really interesting.

I was actually asked I was asked by PBS. When the all creatures great and small show was out if there was a book about veterinary medicine I would recommend to viewers of the show. It was really hard because there’s a lot of really good books. All Dogs Go To Kevin by Dr. Jessica Vogelsang is one of my favorites.

Lucky Dog by Dr Sarah Boston is another great one. I know I’m forgetting something. I’m gonna deeply offend somebody or hurt their feelings. But I’ve got a list gave them a couple and they said, no, we need one. And I gave them Doug’s book The Vet at Noah’s Ark. And it’s just because it’s really an, it’s a neat story about exotic animal medicine.

I think a lot of vets, we know what we do in our job. It’s interesting to see someone who practices a totally different type of medicine, but also the backdrop of the LA riots in the 1990s is just a really interesting place for him to tell the story. And I don’t know, there’s just a lot to it.

So anyway, if you’re a reader out there and you want something good to pick up, check out check out his book. Gang, that’s enough from me. Take care of yourselves, everybody. I’ll talk to you later. 

Dr. Kris Otteman joins us to discuss the critical topic of recognizing and reporting animal abuse within veterinary practices. On this episode of the Cone of Shame Veterinary Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and Dr. Otteman emphasize the importance of practical, action-oriented approaches to identifying signs of abuse and neglect. Dr. Otteman provides guidance on documentation, communication with authorities, and navigating the complexities of suspected abuse cases. Veterinarians and veterinary staff will learn valuable insights on how to be effective advocates for animal victims while maintaining their professional roles. This episode is essential for anyone in the veterinary field committed to protecting animal welfare.

You can also listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, Soundcloud, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts!

LINKS

Victim to Verdict: https://www.victim2verdict.com/

Animal Legal Defense Fund: https://www.aldf.org/

Victim to Verdict Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/victim2verdict/

Dr. Andy Roark Swag: drandyroark.com/shop

All Links: linktr.ee/DrAndyRoark

🎉 Special Offer for Cone of Shame Podcast Listeners! 🎉

Attention, veterinary professionals! For a limited time, listeners of the Cone of Shame podcast can gain access to our online course, “Victim to Verdict: The Veterinarian’s Role in Animal Cruelty Investigations”, for just $49! This in-depth certificate course equips you with the tools and knowledge to play a critical role in recognizing, documenting, and assisting in animal cruelty cases, all from the convenience of your own schedule.

Expand your expertise and strengthen your commitment to animal welfare with this unique offer. Simply use the promo code V2VCOURSE$49 to secure your spot at this special price and join the community of veterinarians making a difference! Offer ends 12/31/24!   Download your free evidence placard template to ensure accurate documentation in animal cruelty investigations.

ABOUT OUR GUEST

Dr. Kris Otteman’s journey into veterinary forensics began as a teenager in Klamath Falls, where she first reported the neglect of a donkey she discovered while riding her horse through the woods. This early experience ignited a passion that would define her illustrious career. With 34 years of veterinary and leadership experience, Dr. Otteman now serves as the President of Victim to Verdict LLC and forensic veterinary consultant to the Animal Legal Defense Fund.

A pioneer in veterinary medicine, she co-founded Banfield, The Pet Hospital, and played a crucial role in developing the nation’s first shelter teaching hospital at the Oregon Humane Society which provides care for over 12,000 shelter pets annually. Dr. Otteman’s expertise in veterinary forensics has led to significant advancements in animal cruelty investigations, and she has shared her knowledge as a courtesy faculty member at Oregon State University, University of Florida Maples Center for Forensic Medicine, and through numerous national and international presentations.

Dr. Otteman’s dedication to animal welfare extends beyond her professional achievements. She has served on multiple boards, including the Oregon Veterinary Medical Licensing Board, Banfield Charitable Trust, and is the current board president of the International Veterinary Forensic Sciences Association. Her contributions to veterinary education and animal welfare have earned her the prestigious OSU/CVM Alumni Fellow award. Residing in Washington with her family, Dr. Otteman continues to inspire and lead with her unwavering commitment to improving the lives of animals.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Andy Roark: Welcome, everybody, to the Cone of Shame Veterinary Podcast. I am your host, Dr. Andy Roark. Guys, I have a really good episode today. This is Dr. Kris Otteman is with me, and we are talking practically about spotting animal abuse in our practice. I know that doesn’t sound super fun. I know that doesn’t sound super rosy.

Guys, first of all Dr. Otteman is a fantastic communicator around this topic. She keeps it really clinical. She keeps it super practical and and action oriented. I took so many notes from such a short podcast. It’s amazing. She gets right into it. She presents this information in a really non emotional, as unupsetting as possible way.

And just. Oh, it’s so so valuable. I’m really proud of this episode. Guys, I hope you’ll take a moment and and listen to it maybe get your team to listen to it. If not consider taking the information here digesting it presenting it to your people. Just because guys we need more awareness about what to do when we see animal abuse in our in our hospitals. And honestly, we need to know what animal abuse in our hospitals looks like. So, anyway, great episode.

Super useful. I promise it’s worth your time. I promise it is going to do the best job it can possibly do of not being heavy and not bringing you down, but really giving you good tools that are going to make you feel empowered. So anyway, that’s what we’re doing today. Let’s get into it. 

Kelsey Beth Carpenter: (singing) This is your show. We’re glad you’re here. We want to help you in your veterinary career. Welcome to the Cone of Shame with Dr. Andy Roark. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Welcome to the podcast. Dr. Kris Otteman. How are you?

Dr. Kris Otteman: I’m well, Andy. Thank you. How are you? 

Dr. Andy Roark: I am, I’m great. I’m, I’m so glad to have you here. You are such an interesting person. You have had such a rich career. You’ve done so many things. You, You recently wrapped up doing some work on the master’s program at the University of Florida. Go Gators!

You are on the faculty at Oregon State University’s College of Vet Medicine. You are the author of a rather interesting book that we’re going to talk about today. You are the author of Animal Cruelty Investigations, A Collaborative Approach from Victim to Verdict, and, and it’s, it’s, it’s pretty, it’s pretty intense title, pretty intense title.

You came onto my radar when one of my good friends, Dr. Caitlin DeWilde, who writes for Today’s Veterinary Business, and she she has a business called the Social DVM, and she’s just very, very sharp. She just reached out to me, and she was like, You need to talk to Kris Otteman. She is, she’s fascinating.

The work she’s doing is really, really important. And people just have no idea about what animal abuse looks like when it comes into vet practices. And so I, I just want to start there and kind of open up is that? Is that true? Do you believe that most veterinarians and vet teams don’t know what they’re looking at when animal abuse cases or animal cruelty cases come into the practice?

Dr. Kris Otteman: You know, I think so, like thinking back when I first got out of vet school, I felt really armed with all these diagnostic and treatment tools and enthusiasm, but I, it was not on my radar to think about someone intentionally, especially intentionally neglecting or abusing an animal. And then, fast forward all these years, we’re really still not structured to teach a format in vet school or even post doc to clinicians to help us understand how to recognize, report, and be a voice for the animal victim.

So yeah, I do think, I look back, I know it was walking right by me in the exam room or I did large animal, even like out in the field. But I didn’t. I didn’t, it did not come onto my radar in terms of how to affect a change and help, you know, other doctors and vet teams address this for our communities.

Dr. Andy Roark: I tend to be, I don’t know, I don’t like to say naive, but I, I tend to look for the best in people and just kind of assume the best. I’m, I am confident. I just don’t have thoughts about animal abuse or neglect come into my mind, I don’t think, unless there’s something extreme that happens, you know what I mean?

It’s just, it’s not something that I have It’s, it’s not in my search image and when you’ve been talking about this and looking at your book I’m confident that I, that I have missed, I’ve missed some tricks. Can we start at sort of a high level and just as, as someone who is probably not looking for these things, help me get my head around, just to start with, what, help me, help me understand sort of the, the problem and then kind of what I should be looking for.

Dr. Kris Otteman: Right. That’s a great question. You know, I’m definitely a rose colored glasses person like you, Andy, tend to like just be looking for the bad actor or thinking, oh, you know, this is bad. I just never, operate that way. And so this has been really interesting from my perspective to put it under that lens of vet med as something just to keep on my rule out list.

So I, what I would say is, you know, veterinarians and vet staff are going to get these cases kind of three main ways. It’s going to be part of your regular job if you’re in animal control or maybe an animal shelter where I practiced for many years, because it’s just going to be part of your job to work these out.

The second way you’re going to get it is some detective, law enforcement, prosecutor, somebody’s going to call you and say, Hey, Andy, I hear you’re a vet in the community. I’ve got this case. Would you look at the records? Would you look at the animal? What, what do you think? That may catch us completely off guard.

I would say it usually does in the cases, even in the last week that I’ve worked on, those have come that way. And the veterinarians are completely wait, what you want me to look at what, and then the, the. The third way that these come up is just recognizing it, like, you know, just those times in, in your career when you, maybe you’re in an exam room, and someone’s telling you how this cat got injured, and you’re thinking, I’m not sure if I’m really being a critical thinker here.

Does that, story match that finding? So, you know, if like blunt force trauma and maybe you do x rays and you see repetitive, repetitive injury pattern, for example, you’re like, yeah, that, you know, that doesn’t really add up that, Oh, I was just trying to bathe the cat or something like. Don’t ever bathe a cat, we all know that.

But, yeah, so that’s kind of what I, I think about the three ways you get it and how it can catch us off guard, for sure.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. I, I actually had one of those cases, number two, where the detectives reach out and say, hey, you know, you’re a veterinarian and they wanted me to do a, a necropsy. And I ended up sort of being involved in this case. Of course, I, I just happened to be working that night when they came in and, and like now I’m, now I’m sort of in this, but I felt wholly unprepared and I didn’t know, you know, I, I answered their questions and, and sort of worked up the cases.

I wouldn’t work up a case, but it was It was definitely kind of, just kind of jarring it and really kind of out of the blue. Kris, when, when people are presented with these sorts of cases, so, let, let, let’s start with the, you know, with the, with the shelter or animal control, you know, work, things like that.

Or if a detective sort of comes in with an animal or something, what are the types of things that, that I should sort of be looking for? What am I trying to document here? What are the, what are the findings that are important for me to pay attention? Cause again, a lot of times this, this just isn’t on my radar.

Dr. Kris Otteman: Yeah, I, I think that’s great. I mean, kudos to you for stepping up and taking the case because it does, it does kind of jar you, like you said. It makes you feel a little unease. Like, what’s the difference? And the way I like to explain it is we, as veterinarians and vet teams, we have a great toolbox, right?

We know how to methodically look at things and document our findings. And an animal cruelty case or a suspected case, it’s really just including a little more detail. So we’re going to take more photos. We’re going to write down more notes, communication notes about what the person that presented the animal or the detective said.

So getting started, it’s just important to know I already have those tools as a vet. I, I know I can just work through this methodically and thoroughly. I’m just going to do an different, a little bit of different documentation. For a real practical example, if you get a live animal in and you think it may have been in a part of a case, you’re going to take what we call five view photos.

So you’re just going to go click, click, click. You’re going to get front, back, sides, and top of the dog or cat so that you can identify it. and document how it looked when you got it. That’s something we wouldn’t normally do in clinical practice. We would just click the BAR box, right? Or, or, whatever.

So, yeah, I think just, just knowing some of the tips that have that are available. And that’s one of the reasons I wanted to write the book and put these protocols in the back about just those specific things that differentiate a physical exam from a forensic exam. Because I know veterinarians, we want to do the best we can and we want the tools, right?

And we’re always learning. We have to be always learning. So, yeah, I think that’s how I approach it.

Dr. Andy Roark: That, that, that’s super helpful. Again, like the five for you photos totally makes sense. Not on, not on my radar. That was just, I guess, I hadn’t, I didn’t think of it. Now you say that I’m like, Oh, yeah, obviously that make, that’s gonna be helpful or useful, but I, it was not something I had, I had considered for. 

Dr. Kris Otteman: No, me neither. No, that’s totally normal. Or like the other photography thing we tell is like far, mid, and close up. So like if you see a dog with maybe an injured eye, you’re going to document, Oh, the dog’s back here. I can see it’s Lulu. Oh, now I can see I’m looking at the eye. Oh, now I’m close up so I can see the injury.

We don’t do that in practice, but that’s incredibly helpful in a forensic report because it shows yes, that was the animal and yes, this was my medical finding. So, It isn’t really any different. I think the documentation is the big difference. But I would say that the CSI effect has been difficult for our profession because everybody thinks this is all about blood spatter, projectile angle, DNA interpretation, and I just like to say, you know what, Doctors, we can do this because we’re going to use our clinical skills and just know some of the basic things that will help us through.

We don’t have to be like, you know, on Bones or something.

Dr. Andy Roark: know it probably sounds bad, but like the the far medium close photos totally make sense again I don’t think that would occur to me in practice I would be the doofus who gets pictures up close documenting the wound and then someone would say that’s not our dog and I would say of course it is you think I’m lying and like I just it completely makes sense.

It was just the idea that it would, that it would not be the pet. That just never occurred to me.

Dr. Kris Otteman: Yeah. Yeah. You wouldn’t, you know, I mean, we get those on our texts all the time at home at night, right? Hey, Andy, what is this on my dog? And it’s like this little photo on your iPhone and you’re like, where is it on the dog? I don’t know. It looks like, but yeah, so it’s just a different, it’s looking at it through a different lens, it’s slightlydifferent. 

Stephanie Goss: Hey, Cone of Shame listeners. . This is Stephanie Goss. Co-host of the Uncharted podcasts with Dr. Andy work. And I’m jumping in here for a second, because one of the number one things. That people ask Andy and I, and all of our colleagues on the Uncharted team about when we go to other conferences we go to events is. Hey, how do I teach my team? 

How to handle conflict? We get asked that by other leaders. All the time. And I get asked by fellow technicians, fellow CSR’s, kennel support members. Hey, how do I get better at talking through conflict with other people on my team. Because conflict is a part of life. And the reality is it is a. A big part of life in general that we don’t talk about. 

And so our team decided it was time. Past time to tackle conflict head-on and so our Uncharted the team has been working hard on a new certificate for veterinary medicine and Andy and I are so excited to say that it is almost here now. Now, I’m going rogue and jumping in here with y’all, but I can’t entirely entirely spill the beans. 

I can tell you that the Uncharted team has put together and awesome certificate on the foundations of how we as people handle conflict and how to get better at it. And so if you want to learn how to talk better to other people on your team. If you want to learn how to handle conflict, even in your personal life. Head over to Uncharted.com/conflict Our team has put a mailing list together. 

Sign up for this mailing list, it’s different than the Dr. Andy mailing list. This one will get you all of the details as soon as they are ready to drop for the certificate. And were not going to want to miss out. It almost ready. And now, 

back to the podcast. 

Dr. Andy Roark: for the third type of case that comes in, the one that we recognize walking into the exam door we’ve got, let’s, let’s take your cat, for example, and they say, oh, you know, I was bathing the cat or whatever, and I’m doing x rays, and this cat’s got multiple healing, and Orthopedic wounds things like that, and I think this is not, this is not right at all.

What, what does that reporting process look like, Kris? Like, where, where do I, where do I go with this idea? Which, of course, I would probably still question myself. I’d probably be like, ah, it doesn’t look good. It doesn’t look right. What are, what are the steps that I can take?

Dr. Kris Otteman: Yeah, that, that’s just, that is the most common feeling I think that we have as colleagues is like, what do I do? So the first thing is just get that basic training on knowing how to document, just photos, documenting, communication And then be prepared by knowing who in your jurisdiction you report to.

Now this can be a little tricky because it’s different based on county and state that you live in. But a really quick easy way is to go to the Animal Legal Defense Fund website, click on your state, look at your jurisdiction, ask around in your area, who do I report suspected animal abuse to? And then you can also find out, am I a required reporter?

Because in most states in the United States now, veterinarians are required to report suspected animal abuse. And so, and we’re also in many states we are not subject to civil or criminal liability when we report in good faith. So, those are important things to know. Go look and find your laws.

Understand who to report for, report to. It’s usually okay to just call local law enforcement and they will guide you. Oh, you know, they might say in some jurisdictions you need to call the local animal control. You need to call this humane society. They have sworn officers or we will take the case. So, you can always start with law enforcement.

Dr. Andy Roark: So. I’m just sort of thinking through what this actually would look like going down in the practice. So I’ve got the cat. I’ve done my documentation. I’ve called, you know, the person in my area that I’m supposed to call. Or I’ve called law enforcement and communicated this. So now I’m hanging up the phone.

I’m still in the clinic and I’ve still got the cat and the person is presumably still waiting in the exam room is so like, where do I, where do I go from this? Do you, do you go in and you say to the person, Hey, I have these suspicions or I’m going to have to hold on to your animal. Do you, do you generally go on and let them take the pet and know that law enforcement is going to follow up with them?

Like I, I don’t mean to be naive, but honestly I, I have

Dr. Kris Otteman: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. This is a super common and excellent question. You know, I think it is a lot about judgment. How is it going in that relationship in the room? In this scenario, many times the person presenting the injured pet, it’s typically a cat or a small dog, the person that did the abuse is likely not there.

And so the veterinarian and technician can have an opportunity to say, tell me more about how you think this happened. Who, who could have had access to your kitty today or in the last few days? Have you noticed any other injuries in the last few months? So you can do a little bit more of your own basically interview in terms of getting clinical information that’s relevant to what you’re seeing.

If you really think, especially if the animal is in urgent, you know, an urgent situation and really needing to be kept, then of course, do whatever you can do to keep the animal in the hospital. Maybe the client goes home, signs a release for care while you wait for law enforcement to come on the scene.

And then really, it’s important for the veterinarian to understand we are not the investigator and we are not the judge and jury. We are the expert that can tell the story for the animal in terms of what this could have been like for the animal, how it could have hurt. or not what the injuries are.

Are they permanent? Are they fatal? And so on. But then the investigator will come to us and say, Okay, Andy, show me your report. What did you hear? What did you see? And then they need, they will take it from there.

Dr. Andy Roark: So, Kris, the way this sounds to me, and again, it is, I think, I think it sort of clicked into my mind here, basically what you’re saying is, I’m going to work this case up like another case. I’m going to go back and say, you know, let’s, let’s go back into the history. And that, that’s really kind of, kind of, at least, at least how I kind of hear it is, what else could have happened?

Is there other people who could have been there? You know, things, things like that of, of, in, in my mind, you know, I don’t know, I’m always, I’m not, I don’t see myself as an interrogator, I don’t see myself as an investigator, but I can take a pretty darn good clinical history, and I definitely am good at looking at diagnostics, going back to the owner and saying, well, what I’m seeing here is not lining up with these things, let’s, let’s talk more, let’s go more deeply into possible causes of what could be going on here, and I think that those are muscles that I already have.

That I, that I, I think I can lean into, and that also doesn’t feel out of character for me. So I go, okay, I can go back into this, I can continue to document, I can look for, you know, continue my diagnostic workup, quite honestly, is sort of how I would, how I would sort of frame it.

Dr. Kris Otteman: Yeah, I think that’s framed exactly right because we aren’t expected and we should not step into the role of law enforcement or investigator, right? We’re not trying to get a confession in the exam room. We’re really just trying to, exactly like you said, suss out that history a little bit more you.

Because that will lead us to maybe further diagnostics, more notes in our report, and it will help shed light on whether or not this could have been an accident or it was intentional. So, that’s a really great way to explain it.

Dr. Andy Roark: Well, I really like the fact that you pointed out the person who is doing animal abuse is probably not the person in the exam room. And I think that that helps me to go, okay, I feel more comfortable continuing, you know, the history taking and going back and talking to this person. And it helps, I think it would help me in the moment to say, well, this is probably the person who’s in this room.

Wow. My initial reaction should be that person should die. It should not, that’s not, that’s not, that’s not where we are. You know what I mean? It’s probably, probably not them. You know what I mean? Let’s not make assumptions. Let’s continue to do our workup. Get our, get our story, get our history, document, document, document.

I, I think that all, you’ve made this much more accessible to me in my mind. So this is really helpful. So at this point, we’ve done our diagnostics, we’ve communicated with the appropriate person. I’m going to go ahead and definitely link up the Animal Legal Defense Fund website in the show notes so people can check that.

I need to go check that because I don’t know who my person is. And so this has been hugely valuable. The, the idea The, the five, the five view photos, the, the far, medium, and close photos, like very, very, very useful information. I feel like at this point we’ve got law enforcement involved. I’m gathering as much information as I can.

I actually feel like I can be a good supporter of this pet and an advocate for this pet. And I’m not in over my head. I, I feel like I know, I know what I’m doing and I’m not, you know, acting. I’m not, I’m not turning into Supercop. Like that, that’s, I, I feel like I’m in a 

Dr. Kris Otteman: Right. Yeah. And you can write up a summary and give it to whoever’s going to be taking it off your hands and and feel good about that contribution and then they’ll take it from there. So, that’s huge. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Kris, is there anything else I should have top of mind here? Because I feel like we’ve walked through this pretty well. I’m going to put a link to your book in the show notes so people can check it out. But any, anything in the process that we haven’t talked about that, that I should, I should make sure that I keep top of mind.

Dr. Kris Otteman: I think as far as the process goes, it’s always just great to not only have a lifeline to who you’re going to report to, but is there somebody in the profession or a colleague that you would want to talk through? Just like doctor to doctor, we talk about internal medicine cases, or derm, or ortho, or whatever.

Is there somebody else in your community? You want to call Kris, call Kris, call somebody to just say, Hey, I’m seeing this. What are the other tips that I need to be thinking about to get through this and come up with a succinct report? We don’t want to leave cliffhangers in our report, but we don’t want to make accusations that are not founded.

It’s not our job. We want to be thorough. We want to be, you know, helpful, but not retaliatory or judgmental. So it is a tricky walk. I would say, you know, looking at the resources that you mentioned, one of the things that, that I did with my colleagues is take a lot of the book and create an online asynchronous course for people who are interested for vets, vet techs, law enforcement, just to get some of these basics, having, you know, who do you call?

How do you do this? Having a policy in your practice that upholds reporting. Because you would be surprised, some practices have a policy that says we won’t report because we don’t know for sure. And that’s, that’s the opposite way we want to go. But yeah, look at, look at the course, look at the book, look at Animal Legal Defense Fund, our website, Victim to Verdict

has some good resources and links that would help. And of course I’m always available to colleagues around the country. Love to help our profession and the animals that we love and help us be the voice.

Dr. Andy Roark: Kris, you are so great. Thank you for what you do for our profession. Thanks for what you do for the pets. I am going to link up Victim to Verdict website as well. The, the, the online course, things like that. Guys, take a look at this stuff. Check it out. It’s something that we should all be up on and just be, at least have in our search image.

So, Kris, thank you so much for being here. You’re just, just amazing. Guys, thanks for tuning in. Take care of yourselves, everybody! 

Dr. Kris Otteman: You’re welcome. Thank you. Thank you, Andy.

Dr. Andy Roark: And that’s what we got for you guys.

Thanks for being here. Thanks to Kris for being here. Thanks for sticking with me. This is super important. It was really good to get this information out to people and it’s just I mean I was really honest in the podcast to say I didn’t know a lot of this stuff. That’s just I have some sort of rose colored glasses. I tend to think the best about people and I just don’t tend to look at people and think that they could be animal abusers or that their pets could be abused.

I don’t want to live in that world where that’s the first thing that I think. But I think it’s good to have it lurking in the back of my mind. And I think in the future, you know, pay attention and make sure if something does come through my doors, I want to catch it. And I want to say something about it and I want to put a stop to it.

And that’s inspiring to me. So anyway, guys, take care of yourselves. Be well. I’ll talk to you later on.