Tabitha Kucera, RVT, VTS (Behavior) joins Dr. Andy Roark to talk about how veterinary technicians can build a career in behavior. She shares her journey from general practice to launching Chirrups and Chatter, the challenges she faced, and the steps she took to advocate for herself and establish a successful behavior consulting business. They discuss imposter syndrome, career growth, and why behavior is an essential part of veterinary medicine. Gang, let’s get into this episode.
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ABOUT OUR GUEST
Tabitha Kucera is an Elite Fear Free Registered Veterinary Technician, Veterinary Technician Specialist (Behavior), Certified Cat Behavior Consultant, and Karen Pryor Academy Certified Training Partner. She owns Chirrups and Chatter Cat and Dog Behavior Consulting and Training and is the animal behavior technician at The Gentle Vet in Ohio. Tabitha lectures at both regional and national levels, enjoying the opportunity to help people better understand and connect with animals. Additionally, Tabitha is a Fear Free certified speaker and coach, a Fear Free Practice Certification and Implemention Consultant, and the host of the podcast, Tails from a Vet Tech.
Tabitha offers organizational consulting and education for veterinary clinics and animal shelters, focusing on best practices that address both the emotional and physical needs of animals. She specializes in behavior and training programs and handling skills. Tabitha has contributed to the development of training and behavior programs for numerous veterinary hospitals and shelters and continues to provide ongoing support to these organizations through her consulting work.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Andy Roark: Welcome, everybody, to the Cone of Shame Veterinary podcast. I am your host, Dr. Andy Roark guys. I got a great one here today with the one and only Tabitha Kucera. Tabitha is a veterinary technician. She is an RVT. She is also a Veterinary Technician Specialist in Behavior. She does a million things which we talk about and really what I wanted to get into with her was, how did you launch this business?
Because she has a business, it’s called Chirrups and Chatter. It’s a behavioral consulting business. Guys, she does a lot of work, and she’s doing a lot of speaking, and she is still doing some GP work, and like Boy, but she is the architect of her own life, and I’m fascinated with how people who are in practice leave practice to do things that are still related to practice, but that are under their own control, and that she has really built, has built something special, something unique that’s just hers.
I think there’s a lot of people out there who have got something they’re passionate about. And they’ve always held back a little bit on going after it or making it their primary job. I think you need to hear this episode. I think it might make you think a little bit more deeply about what do you really want your career to be like?
So anyway, this is a career development episode. So good. So fun. Tabitha is so wonderful and energetic and great to talk to. I think you guys are going to love her. Let’s get into this episode.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: This is your show. We’re glad you’re here. We want to help you in your veterinary career. Welcome to the Cone of Shame with Dr. Andy Roark.
Dr. Andy Roark: Welcome to the podcast, Tabitha Kucera. How are you?
Tabitha Kucera: Good! I’m so stoked to be here.
Dr. Andy Roark: I am thrilled to have you here. You and I are just meeting for the first time and you are raved about and gushed about by my good friend who actually came to town and went to a wedding with me recently, Tasha McNerney, the original Anesthesia Nerd. And she was talking to me, and she was like, you have got to meet Tabitha and talk to her. She is so bad a. And I went and did some research on you, and I was like, wow, this person is really interesting.
And I wanted to have you on. For those who do not know you, you are a RVT, you are a veterinary technician, you are a VTS in Behavior. You are doing a lot of lecturing. I’m going to see you soon as we’re recording this at Western Vet Conference in Las Vegas. You are the founder and owner of Chirrups and Chatter, a behavior service.
And you are practicing at The Gentle Vet in Ohio. You do work there in, in the clinic. You are just doing a million, million things. And let me stop here for a second and let you give an overview. Tabitha, tell me a bit about what you do.
Tabitha Kucera: So as many of us awesome veterinary professionals, I do quite a lot. So behavior is my jam. So my biggest thing is I own Chirrups and Chatter and it’s a cat and dog behavior consulting business. So I see clients from a behavior consulting standpoint, both virtually around the world, but also locally, in the home. I also do organizational consulting, so I may work with a veterinary clinic or shelter if they want to implement behavior programs, help their staff better understand body language, implement, like compassionate and fear, free handling, all of that lovely stuff where I’ll do hands-on workshops and then actually,
kind of shadow and observe and give like immediate feedback with them for the day. I also speak, as you mentioned, it’s so fun. I was at VMX. I’ll be at WVC. I get around as you can follow me on my page and see everywhere I’m at all about behavior, but also vet tech opportunities. I love everyone, but I do love my vet techs and I don’t think we always realize how amazing we are and how many things that we can do.
And I do a lot of them. So I do a lot of behavior consulting, speaking, organizational consulting, but then I also work with fear free and other organizations to create resources and content. And my job is awesome. I get to do a little bit of everything. And then I do work in GP as well.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, you I think one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you was you have such an interesting job that you’ve made for yourself. And I always think that’s important for anybody in vet medicine to know you don’t have to have the traditional job path, but also especially for technicians.
Talk, talk to me a little bit about how you got started in this. I’m, imagining at some point Tabitha was working. As a vet tech or as an assistant, and you decided that you maybe thought that there was something more, or you decided to venture out a little bit. Walk me through when your path diverged from the traditional sort of general practice technician path.
Tabitha Kucera: Yeah, so long story short, I worked in GP for over 12 years and in that time from attending CE and, working in GP, I happened to find my love for handling and more of a critical thinking approach to handling, better understanding my patients, which then of course led me to my obsession with behavior and I decided I’m going to get my VTS, which you can get yours too in GP.
It is more challenging, but I highly recommend it. So I found my love for behavior and then I happen to be the go to person. at the practices I worked at for Fearful Pets, which is a lot of them. So it was a lot of Tabitha, and then I started offering services like victory visits, which are different than happy visits, and behavior services
Dr. Andy Roark: Let me jump in here because I don’t want you to get too far past this, right? how supportive was your practice when you said you wanted to be a VTS? How did that go down?
Tabitha Kucera: I’m going to be honest.
Dr. Andy Roark: this was years back, right? this is, think technician empowerment has come a long way. And I just, I think that’s very fair. And we should say that up front was when you were doing this, it was not as common as today. That’s why I asked the question of like, how was that received when you said this is, I love this.
Tabitha Kucera: It wasn’t as well received as, I anticipated and that’s probably why I offer so much mentorship now because unfortunately, I didn’t have that experience where I received a lot of mentorship. I had a veterinarian who I’m still very close with who did support me. And then my third year, because the VTS is a long process, at that point I started to get more support and I actually left a practice purposely because it was very obvious that I did everything I could do there, and I was somewhat being taken advantage of, and also, the support that maybe they expressed was not being shown.
I found another practice in which I was very clear with what I needed and how we can benefit each other. I actually wrote up a contract.
Dr. Andy Roark: Really? So you went in and you were like, this is how I want it. This is how I think should be. All right.
Tabitha Kucera: This is how I can help you. It just helps to, we’re helping each other. We don’t want to waste each other’s time.
So it’s, from a professional standpoint, I think it’s awesome. And I wish more techs did that because why bother working here, me not being a good fit, me being clear with what I’m needing and how it’s beneficial to you, and then it not working out over and over again. And my learning history, I was like, how else can I handle this?
I’m like, maybe a contract and being even clearer.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, no, I, so I love it. I love a lot about this. So the things that really speak to me, I’m such a big believer of when you find something that you’re passionate about and you’re like, this is my thing is keep going and doing it like that. The career advice I love to give to people it worked for me is figure out what you enjoy and figure out how to do more of it and then figure out what you don’t enjoy and figure out how to do less of it and just keep doing that.
But like the fact that you would do this, I think incredible. I think what you described, too, as far as, I did this for three years and then things changed. I think that is very common. I think sometimes you have to go and do the work and get the skills. And then. When people see what you’re actually creating or how valuable you are.
And here’s the other thing, too. I think we need to see what we’re capable of. And before we understand ourselves, because you really don’t know what you’re going to want until you get into it. So that whole, three years in, things changed. I think that’s incredible. And then the thing with a contract.
Tabitha, have I heard of any, I have not heard of technicians. doing that. However, I will tell you that I have done something similar in my career as well. And it’s, I call it a memorandum of understanding. It’s not a contract that I’m like, this is a legal thing with lawyers, but it is a clearly stated, this is what I’m going to do.
This is what you’re going to do. This is how it benefits both of us. I just want to put it down in writing and I always email it that way. If it ever comes to it, I can say, I sent you this email on this at this time and you can go search for it and find it. And so anyway, that’s that, I just, I think that’s so slick, but that clear expectations of, this is what you can expect from me, this is what I’m looking for from you.
Oh, chef’s kiss. Really well done. I just, I like it so much. I didn’t mean to interrupt you, but I just, I didn’t want you to get too far past that transition. The off ramp, as I call it, is, when you’ve got someone and they’re doing the same thing and again, they’re like, I think there’s something different for me.
I think that’s so important. I think it’s so interesting. And I always like to have people on the podcast to talk about what that off ramp looked like for them. And I justanyway, thanks for unpacking that.
Tabitha Kucera: No, I love that. So then I again was seeing because behavior is everything. I’m not biased, but I am a little, it applies to literally everything.
So as you can imagine, it was a lot of Tabitha, a lot of like being thrown into situations, which isn’t bad. A lot of us learn that way. And then I was like, Huh. I’m really good at this. I’m a lot more educated. I also obtain more credentials. So I was like, okay, maybe I should start seeing behavior consults outside of GP.
And I was actually working full time in GP and started seeing behavior consults with my own business, which starting a business, there’s really not. Hey, this works every time thing. So that’s been a journey. And also I’ll be honest, there was some pretty significant like burnout and compassion fatigue and also years of overextending myself being like, hey, you’re the surgery tech and you are doing all this other stuff.
We want you to do all this behavior stuff, but you’re going to do that after your 12 hour shift. I had years of that. And also implementing positive changes, which is something I’m a huge fan of, but doing that at every practice you work at, it does take it out of you a bit.
Dr. Andy Roark: But let me ask you about that. when I started out, I was working full time as a vet, and then I, I did the same thing. I did, I did, I wrote on my days off, and I would do, consulting stuff. And I, used my vacation time to go and do speaking things.
That’s just, it’s how it did, how it was. Because I, I had a baby at home, and I was supporting the family, and do this. Knowing what you know now, do you think some of that is required, Tabitha? And if not, how would you have done it differently if you could go back?
That phase where you’re getting your other career going, you’re doing these consultations, and then also you need that full time paycheck. what would you say to younger Tabitha now about that phase of your life.
Tabitha Kucera: Interestingly enough, I think everyone’s path is different but for me I don’t think that I would change anything. Because, being that person that implemented humongous positive changes over time,
which I still do in a different aspect, but I, it taught me so much and I’m such a better teacher and it’s corny to say, but I’m a lot better in so many aspects, even though, again, like obtaining your VTS in GP while I was through it, would I recommend it? No, but now that I’m done, honestly, I’m so thankful, even though it is a lot more challenging because I think my practical applications and just some other experiences that I had throughout that process and the challenge because it’s mostly self paced like you have to be motivated to obtain your VTS.
Now I can look back and say, you know what? That sucked.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah!
Tabitha Kucera: A lot of it sucked. But I love who I am. Because of it and also how I approach my colleagues and what I’ve learned through that process where I can help other people. Maybe, for example, I would have been clear with my criteria and wrote contracts way sooner ideally and other things.
But now I can share that with my colleagues so they can not, or again, with mentorship, I can recommend things that worked for me. After trying lots of things and they can do it sooner and ideally have mentorship. I know it’s corny, but I don’t know if I’d change anything. No,
Dr. Andy Roark: I think you’re right. And that’s, I love to hear you say that. That’s been my, that’s my thoughts as well as I go, I’m not saying it was healthy when I did it and I didn’t, it definitely was not fun. But also that’s why it’s an honest question for me was, do you think you could have done it differently?
I don’t know that I could and, I always, I wonder what other people’s perspective are.
Dr. Andy Roark: Tabitha, you’re getting this thing up and going and this was, again, this was a while back. roughly how long ago was this? So, you were getting up and going, you’re finishing the VTS, you’re doing this work, what’s the general sort of ballpark year that we’re in?
Tabitha Kucera: I started, err, I think I’ve had Chirps and Chatter for 8 years and I probably worked in GP for a year, a year and a half into it so, math.
Probably seven or eight years ago, and then I didn’t make the leap to leaving GP full time until, a year into the business, and it was terrifying.
Dr. Andy Roark: Okay, tell me about that. How did, actually, first question, were the vets supportive of this? How did the veterinarians feel about sending you cases?
Tabitha Kucera: That’s a whole nother podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark: No, I’m just curious.
Tabitha Kucera: Now, it’s great. Like in the GP I worked in they would, and then word got around, especially because I see cat and dog and unfortunately cat behavior resources are just lacking as a whole. So I, I did have a lot of vets who were familiar with me. Through speaking and also like locally and they were like, tell me when you get your business because also I wasn’t super comfortable sharing my business because, I had some imposter syndrome and stuff for the first year.
But they were like, tell me when you get started because I need to send clients to you right away. So I had some beautiful support, but then also I didn’t maybe have as much. So I was surprised by maybe some of the lack of support, but that’s a lot of the power dynamic stuff. And I still deal with that a little bit now occasionally, but it’s just part of our field.
We’re working towards it. We understand we’re better together, but it is a an issue that a lot of technicians have to deal with.
Dr. Andy Roark: I expected that you would. That’s why I asked about it. and also, I think it’s important for other people to hear that if they’re trying to do their own thing or they’re starting out and they’re doing a VTS, I assume that there’s going to be that pushback, especially at the beginning.
I think it’s wonderful that, the takeaway that I took from what you said was, you had some good connections. You had some people who trusted you. You had a reputation among the people who knew you that was strong, and then you were able to keep working and, your reputation continued to grow and those things smooth out.
And I just, I think that’s important for people to hear, especially people with imposter syndrome. I can just imagine, having some doors closed in your face because you’re not, you don’t have the right kind of degree. And so anyway, it’s interesting to hear that.
Tabitha Kucera: Yeah, and then essentially when I made the leap to leaving and I left on really good terms with the GP I was at, and I actually continued to do, so I do a lot of, at the time, that was a while ago, but I continued to do victory visits there. So I would work with high FAS patients, or fear, anxiety, and stress patients in the clinic and then leave.
Or I would help with Behavior modification, so like classical counter conditioning, desensitizing, cooperative care stuff, like we would have days where I would work with those patients and then leave and so I stayed, I had a really strong relationship with them for a while until my career, honestly, I should have done it sooner because my career blew up when I, very quickly, I’ve worked really, hard, but immediately after GP, I was like, I told my partner, I was like, Whoa, man.
I, this is a lot. And I’m like, this is with me just putting myself out there a little bit more. So it was hard because there was some of that struggle where I’m like, am I, which upsets me now that I struggle with this so much. But I was like, am I a tech? Hell yeah, I’m a tech. What? I’m like such a tech.
But I did struggle with that a little more than I anticipated for, a hot minute. But within six months. I realized I am a technician, but that was a big struggle point because so many of us associate GP with vet tech and not really outside of that. And that’s another thing I’m a huge proponent of because I’ll be honest, I went to, I had amazing teachers in tech school.
I’ve had amazing, mentors even prior to my VTS, all that lovely stuff. But I never really was told or heard stories about. vet techs outside of GP which is probably why I’m so loud about it because I feel like there are so many amazing opportunities where we can be so beneficial. Like I much rather see a vet tech writing a blog about animal care than a blogger.
For example like, there’s so many opportunities, even though, even if you choose to work full time at GP and have side gigs because many of us hustle, that’s the, I still hustle. But yeah, I wish I would have known that sooner because I think I would have left GP maybe a little before I was crying in the bathroom.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, it’s still such a it’s still such a leap You know what? I mean like that whole like I’m leaving this guaranteed paycheck to do my own thing I don’t think it matters who you are what you’re doing. I think it’s I think that’s scary did you build your business up to a pretty good place where you had a pretty steady clientele and stuff before?
You said this is gonna be my new main thing or was it a pretty or? Did you make it a leap of faith to say, Boy, I really hope that this grows. I’m going for it.
Tabitha Kucera: It was a little bit in the middle. Because at that point, I was already being asked to speak at larger conferences and similar to you, especially as a tech, I was lucky to get a week paid vacation and it would be me speaking.
So I already had somewhat was in that realm. And then I’ll be honest, like I have a partner with another income who also works business was based in another country where they covered my insurance. So that, those are really, I have to talk about that. Those are. Those are factors where making that leap was less terrifying.
But I also had, because I was still working at the GP, but in a different aspect. So I had a lot of side gigs along with,
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Tabitha Kucera: I think made me feel a little more comfortable from a financial paycheck standpoint. Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. It’s funny, I found that in, in your career. It’s like they, there’s a saying about going bankrupt, that it happens very slowly and then all at once. it’s the same thing with success, where you’re working and you’re working and you’re working and you’re working. And then all at once, things, you get a breakthrough and you’re like, oh, you’ve got lots of opportunities and now I’m making it.
I think people see others who are having that all at once moment and go, oh my gosh, she just hung the sign out. And then all of a sudden everything went, and they don’t realize that it was very, slowly, before it was all at once. And groundwork laying, it takes so much time and intentionality.
Tabitha Kucera: think that’s an awesome point to bring up because, and this is something now I’m very confident in my skill set. Of course I’m always learning and connecting with others, but back when I was a little wee baby, my partner, like friends would say things like. Oh, that’s sick that you’re doing that.
You’re so lucky. And he, this was a long time ago. He would always say, she’s not lucky. She works her butt off.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. That’s a good partner.
Tabitha Kucera: planting that seat. this, cause now I’m so confident and I stand up for myself and I advocate for my colleagues, but him doing that repeatedly. It made a really big, where I believe, I, where I believed it, especially in these caregiving gigs, those are hard for us to understand.
So and also I meet people who see where I’m at now in my career, where I’m like speaking literally everywhere. I have I’m doing my best, but I do have a long waiting list for behavior clients, but like you said, I’ve been doing this for a very long time. And literally the whole time have been hustling hard.
I, we all can do it, but I also appreciate you saying that because it isn’t as simple as, Hey, that’s sick, I’m going to start doing that next week.
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, yeah.
Tabitha Kucera: And sometimes I think people maybe, they mean but they misperceive. Yeah, they
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, they totally mean well. And you have been lucky. And I have been very lucky. Insanely lucky. And also, luck only happens when you’re working hard, is what I have found. it’s out there, which is yes. Yes. You have to put yourself in a position to, yeah. You have to put yourself in a position to take advantage of opportunities. Yeah. Oh man. What do you know now that you wish you knew back at the very beginning when you were getting excited about behavior.
Tabitha Kucera: I’ve always
Dr. Andy Roark: What would you say to young Tabitha? just, yeah.
Tabitha Kucera: I would say that others believe in you before you thought it. I know that sounds like a strange one. But I felt so alone. Especially with the VTS thing. I’m such a passionate, self motivated person. So I joke that I’m like stubborn and persistent in a good way because I’m getting it done.
I don’t care who says I’m not. But also, I feel like I might have had a little more support than I felt like I did. But I, just, it was so hard that I felt alone. I’m gonna get emotional. I felt alone for a big portion, and I know there are a lot of veterinary colleagues out there who are working towards credentials VTSs, getting boards, whatever that may look like, or even implementing changes, whether it’s better pain management in your practice, better understanding of emotional needs, and dang, can it feel alone a lot of the time.
And I don’t think I was alone as I actually felt I was, if that perspective.
Dr. Andy Roark: No, I I’m love it. I think what I’m hearing here is, if I know someone who’s out there and they’re trying to do their thing, you might think they know they’re awesome. You might think that they know that they’re doing just fine. They don’t need me to tell them that they’re doing great. But sometimes they really do need you to tell them that they’re doing great.
Tabitha Kucera: As a behavior professional, it’s funny, I don’t even realize I do it. I reinforce people constantly. Yeah. Which is probably why people are like, Oh, I love Tabitha. Let’s have her come back. It might be as simple as I ran into someone at a conference and I remember seeing them two years ago. And I complimented their hair or their shirt or their question or something they were doing and they would email me, I had a tech email me who I saw two years ago again at VMX
I remembered her. I’m seeing her again at another conference I’m speaking at in Rhode Island. And she’s it meant so much that you remembered me. And I think just being genuine and kind to people. Man, I would love more of that.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Tabitha Kucera: because it really, obviously I’m very extroverted and I, understand that.
But like just reinforcing people like, Oh, I love the way you handled that animal or I love the way you handle that conversation. That’s a great way you spoke to your vet in that challenging situation. Now it just comes naturally to me, and I think a big part of that is my background and behavior, but we all know that we can focus on the positive and compliment each other genuinely.
Not that you’re doing a great job, but your body language and what you’re showing us is showing that. We all know pizza parties are triggering for most vet techs. So yeah I think just being more genuine and just reinforcing people a lot more often would be awesome.
Dr. Andy Roark: I think that’s fantastic. Tabitha, thank you so much for being here. Where can people find you online? Where can they keep up with your exploits? Where can they learn from you about behavior?
Tabitha Kucera: Thank you so much for having me. I am all around, so you can find me at chirpsandchatter. com where I have a lot of my information, but I’m also on Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, at Chirps and Chatter, TikTok. Behavior Vat Tech. And then I also have a podcast. Yeah, see, we all do all the things called Tails from a Vet Tech, which has been on a bit of a hiatus because of how chaotic life has been.
But the plan is to get back on track with that. So yeah, you can find me in all of those places. And I would love to meet all of you amazing people.
Dr. Andy Roark: Great. I will, I’ll expect I’ll see you very soon at WVC. It’ll be over when this comes out, but I will have gotten to hang out with you in Las Vegas. Tabitha, thanks so much for being here. Guys, thanks for tuning in. Take care of yourselves, everybody.
Tabitha Kucera: Bye, everybody!
Dr. Andy Roark: And that’s what I got. Guys, thanks for being here. Tabitha, thanks for being here. Gang, take care of yourselves, everybody.
If you loved this episode, take a moment and write me a review on the podcast, wherever you get your podcasts. If you know someone who is starting to do their own stuff, they’re starting to maybe see some cases, do some consultations, maybe do some work outside the practice let Tabitha be a reminder that you might think those people are crushing it or they feel like they’re crushing it or they realize how awesome they are but but they don’t always realize that and it never hurts to tell somebody, hey, you’re doing great I really admire what you’re doing. Anyway, so that’s my takeaway from today. Take care of yourselves gang. Talk to you later. Bye
