Ken Yagi MS, RVT, VTS joins the podcast to talk about an unaccredited veterinary technician apprenticeship in the state of Washington, the quagmire that is technician certification standardization, the term “Veterinary Nurse” and how practices can change the way they leverage their support staff.
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ABOUT OUR GUEST
Kenichiro Yagi, MS, RVT, VTS (ECC), (SAIM)
During his 20 years in the field, Ken has discovered and refined his role as a veterinary technician by promoting compassionate and progressive care for patients and their families. He obtained his VTS certification in emergency and critical care as well as small animal internal medicine and achieved his master’s degree in Veterinary Science. He is currently the Chief Veterinary Nursing Officer for Veterinary Emergency Group and the Program Director for the RECOVER Initiative. He has been awarded the NAVTA Veterinary Technician of the Year award in 2016, the California Veterinary Medical Association Veterinary Technician of the Year award in 2016, and the California RVT Association of the Year award in 2017. Ken has co-edited the Manual of Veterinary Transfusion Medicine and Blood Banking and has published various text chapters and articles in various publications. He gives presentations internationally on topics in ECC, transfusion medicine, and the veterinary nursing profession.
Ken works to encourage further recognition of the vital role of the veterinary nurses and technicians through work with organizations such as the National Association of Veterinary Technicians in America co-chairing the Veterinary Nurse Initiative and serving as a board member of the Veterinary Emergency and Critical Care Society, the Academy of Veterinary Emergency and Critical Care Technicians and Nurses, and the Veterinary Innovation Council. He is also an advocate for the Open Hospital Concept, encouraging veterinary practices to invite the pet owners to “the back” as a part of the team.
Ken invites everyone to ask “Why?” to understand the “What” and “How” of our field, and to continually pursue new limits as veterinary professionals and individuals.
This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Welcome everybody to the Cone of Shame Veterinary podcast. I am your host, Dr. Andy Roark. Guys, I got a great episode for you today. I am here with Ken Yagi. Ken Yagi is so many things. He’s an icon in the veterinary technician world. He is also the chief veterinary nursing officer of VEG. He’s the former past president. He’s the past president of NAVTA, the the North American Vet Tech Association. A bunch of other things I talk about when he comes onto the show. Anyway, I’m talking to him about a new program in Washington State that is unaccredited that still funnels people into the technician licensing exam. And I’m like, “What is up with that and how does that work?” So we start talking about what an unaccredited technician program looks like, and then we talk about the [inaudible 00:00:53] that is credentialing and how it’s wildly different. There’s no standardization and what headaches that causes and how we get out of that.
And the last thing we end up is talking about the very end is if you want to use technicians differently in your practice, say you want to try to really leverage them, but you don’t know how to go forward with that, how do you do that? And I like that question because I ask Ken and you give a very nice succinct answer, and then I answered my own question after that. So if you want to hear what I think, I shared that with Ken even though he didn’t ask at the end of the episode. And that’s how this episode goes.
Anyway, I think it’s really fun. I think it’s really interesting. I am really thinking a lot about technician utilization as I look at our profession, which is wildly rapidly changing with telemedicine, with corporate acquisition, with pet owners wanting service and they can’t get into clinics, our capacity to see pets. All of these things are big deals and I think technicians are a big part of all of them. So technicians are a big piece. I don’t think people realize how important technicians are going to be in our profession, in our livelihood in the next five years and that’s what I think. So I really dig into that with Ken. Guys, I hope you’ll enjoy it. I hope you’ll get something out of it. Let’s get into this episode.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter:
(singing) This is your show. We’re glad you’re here. We want to help you in your veterinary career. Welcome to Cone of Shame with Dr. Andy Roark.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Welcome to the podcast, Ken Yagi. Thanks for being here.
Thanks for having me.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Man, it’s my pleasure. For those who don’t know, you have a laundry list of accolades. You are a veterinary technician. You are a veterinary technician, specialist in emergency and critical care and internal medicine. You were the past president of NAVTA with the North American Veterinary Technician Association. You are the current chief of veterinary nursing officer at VEG, the veterinary emergency group. So you do a lot, you are a huge voice for veterinary technicians and you have been involved in our profession in so many ways and I wanted to reach out and talk to you today about a big mess. A big mess that I think is having real effects in our profession right now and it’s going to have effects in our profession going forward. And that is the technician credentialing mess.
So what I want to talk to you is about what the heck is going on with credentialing of veterinary technicians? How do we get into this quagmire and do you see a path out? So to provide some color to what I’m talking about is, it’s been this case for a while that we’ve had different states have different practice acts that allow technicians to do different things and some states have protections for credentialed technicians or licensed technicians that says, you must be a licensed technicians do these things. Other states don’t have that at all. So there’s real sometimes question to the benefit of getting licensed if other people can just do your job and there’s no protections for you and things like that. And that’s been the case for a while and that’s been a frustration.
But then I’m looking around and the state of Washington actually, they just approved this controversial veterinary technician apprenticeship program that basically goes around accreditation. It’s not accredited and it’s an apprenticeship which sets people up to take the technician’s licensing examination. And you go, well, that doesn’t seem right to have a non-accredited program that goes around our formal education structure but ends up at the same examination. But I see it happening.
So anyway, I’m looking at that and I’m thinking a lot about the future for technicians. I’m thinking a lot about the capacity of that medicine, how we handle pet owners who want to get care. And I’m very optimistic about technicians in that way. But boy, the mess about credentialing and what we’re able to do and the lack of standardization, it really in my mind is holding us back from leveraging our technicians in any a uniform way. So anyway, that’s a lot to lay on you. Let me just pause there for a second and say of everything that laid out, do you agree with that assessment or am I off base?
No, I think that the profession has definitely come a long way, but you’re right that there’s still a lot of work to be done before the credentials amongst all states are “standardized.” And I think there’s different things that we need to look at regarding that. I think you mentioned licensing in the sense of different credential titles being out there. The standards in terms of becoming credentialed should have been set pretty well amongst all states in that it requires an AVMA credit program degree passing the national examination called the VTNE and becoming registered, licensed or certified by either state governing bodies or private organizations that issue certifications to become a credentialed veterinary technician.
But then there’s the other pieces that you’re talking about. What does title protection looked like? Who can call themselves veterinary technicians? What does the scope of practice look like? Who can do what within the state and do they need to be licensed in order to do so? And all of those pieces could be slightly different depending on the state that you’re in, which makes it hard for people to know what a veterinary technician actually looks like. So in that sense it’s still a mess.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, it’s frustrating for me. I work a lot in practice efficiency and in running good teams and highly leveraging support staff. But speaking at a national and international level as I too, it’s really hard when what people can do in different states is so wildly different. I mean, some states that have no guidance or no empowerment of technicians laid out. And then I’ve got other practices in the state of Washington where you can have technicians that are indirectly supervised by veterinarians and they’re using technicians basically in buildings by themselves. And the doctors are coming in doing telemedicine appointments with the technicians, and it’s all clear and above board, but that’s how it’s set up in Washington. But I don’t know that moves to other states. It’s not something that you can say, “Well, we could do this here or there,” but I just use that as an example of the variability I see in how technicians can be used.
Yeah. I think when it comes to scope of practice, the basic thing we can say is things like diagnosing, providing a prognosis, prescribing treatment and surgery is restricted to licensed veterinarians. And then everything else in veterinary medicine can be delegated to non veterinarian employees. So depending on the state, that needs to be a veterinary technician and depending on states, it could be anyone. And that’s the issue that we have. I think when you mentioned things like indirect supervision, there’s different levels of supervision that people need to have in order to provide certain things.
Obviously the higher risk tasks like surgical assisting, actually having like scrubbing in and having your hand in the abdomen and things like that needs to be immediate supervision that the veterinarian needs to be right there in order to do so while something like a blood draw could be done with indirect supervision where they might be somewhere within the facility or not even on the facility. And that’s all different and varied within each of the states. And it’s moving towards standardization in that AAV V S B recently put out a model regulation for veterinary technician and technologists scope of practice to outline what they should be able to do based on the level of supervision that they have.
So that’s like the goal that every state should be aiming towards to try to standardize. But that even then there’s different opinions within each of the states. When you have 50 different groups of people trying to form an opinion, it’s hard to come to a standard.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Stepping back to this Washington program. So you said in order to be a credentialed technician, you needed an AVMA accredited program with, this is not an AVMA accredited program. They do take the veterinary technician national examination and they do a state licensing test, but it’s not an accredited program. So are these credentialed technicians or are they going to be some credentialed assistant? I mean, and I don’t know, I’m just looking at this. They are trying to get my head around and say, what does this mean? Are these people going to get streamlined into the technician pipeline or are they going to not get streamlined? And this is going to be a thing of like, well, you’ve got this weird other certification that’s not exactly credentialing. Where does that go? Does that add to the disruption or is that going to flow into what we’re already doing?
Yeah. So it’s a little bit complicated because it’s not a separate certification that we’re talking about. Actually, let me step back a second and say that the process is still ongoing, that they got provisional approval at the moment, but there’s an appeal process that people like Ashley Byrne, Ryan Frazier from Washington State Vet Tech Association, Ed Carlson, Ashley Seki from the National Association of Vets in America, they’re very much advocating for us along with the Washington State VMA and the AVMA in order to try to reverse this approval. But the provisional approval was that when people go through this apprenticeship program, they will actually be licensed veterinary technicians in the state of Washington. So the credential is the same, and so they’re being approved to do the same thing that people who have gone through the official accredited educational pathway would also have.
Now with that said, it’s a little bit different because this is what’s considered a alternate route of becoming credentialed that some states still have that allows people who don’t go through the standard AV merit program degree educational program and passing the national examination to become the credential technician in that particular state. So what does that mean? Well, I think it does mean that their education level’s going to be slightly different, so they’re trying to meet that standard in a different way.
So depending on how this apprenticeship program is set up and what their training process looks like and what the education that they get is, you would have two different kinds of people and it’s hard for us to make a judgment call on whether this program that’s being set up is going to be appropriate to create effective people who can safely practice as a veterinary technician or not. I think that’s something that somebody with expertise in taking a look at what a apprenticeship program would look like could tell us a little bit more about. But with that said, it didn’t go through the AVMA accreditation process because it utilized the state’s apprenticeship program approval process, which turned it into a little bit of a slight loophole that the state could use in order to create this pathway.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It feels like there’s a lot of people exploiting a lot of different loopholes right now in regard to medicine in general, but definitely to technicians, and I don’t mean that in a cynical way. I think it’s because there’s a ton of money pouring into vet medicine right now. I just went to the VMX conference and guys, our profession is fundamentally changing. The ground under our feet is breaking and shifting and it’s never going back and it’s just the amount of outside interest in what we do and the amount of outside money coming in is just absolutely huge.
So I feel like when people look at our profession and you see outside interest, whether it’s private equity or online retailers or things like that coming in, they look at our profession, they go, okay, well we’re going to make this work and there’s not enough doctors to meet demand or they’re not located in the right places. We’re not distributed correctly to meet demand and we have technicians and technicians are woefully underpaid and they want to do more things. The answer here is, we’re going to change the way we use technicians to get this work done. And I see a lot of leverage behind those dollars.
The people who are pushing all that stuff, they have real resources and they’re not interested in hearing about credentialing or how things have always been done. They’re interested in the outcome. So I’m seeing it’s almost like stress testing the system in a lot of ways. So I just look at that. When you hear me say this and say, I’m seeing a lot of influence and a lot of forces who have their own agenda and a lot of resources to back their agenda up. When you see them coming in, do you see the way that technicians are used changing radically right now or do you think that I’m making that up?
No, you’re definitely not making it up because there’s different kinds of practice models that are coming in, different veterinary businesses that are being stood up and all them are going to need staff. So it really stems back to the shortage that we have and how do we fill that shortage with people that can provide the care that we need them to provide. So just taking advocate stance on this with that, I would say that if there is a veterinary technician shortage right now, the solution to that is to really elevate the profession. So what does that mean? If we want to have more technicians who can do the work that they can do, then make sure that they are clearly distinguished for having that credential and feel valued in that so they don’t leave the field. That we should pay them differently because of their credential. That they should be utilized for the education and that’s the way to do it, to keep them in the field that we have enough and more people wanting to come into the field so that we don’t have that shortage.
I think that feels like a long term solution because it takes a little bit of time to get that thing happening all over the place that people recognize this as not they want to come into. So then maybe that’s where your point comes in where if there are companies who are hospitals that are trying to fill the shortage with capable people going the route of on the job training, showing them how to do the procedures, perform the tasks and be able to do the more mechanical side of it without having the complete education behind it seems attractive because then you can get more people through to become credentialed. I think that’s the wrong way to go and I’ll be clear about that. I think that the education and people knowing the why we’re doing things behind the how and what we’re doing is definitely important and we shouldn’t deviate from that. But the solution to that really should be how do we get more people through the educational process?
I was looking at the apprenticeship program and it’s a three year experience program, so it’s going to take just as long as not four to get people through this program than the traditional education pathway. So it seems like it would be much more productive and better for the profession if we can get people through the educational pathway instead and provide the resources to do that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I don’t get me wrong, I completely agree. I was looking at it as well, and it’s like 6,600 on the job hours and three years. It’s not, send us your money and we’ll mail you a certificate. It is definitely not that. It definitely looks like it’s got some bones to it. So anyway, that’s why I wanted to talk to you about it was just to say I’m looking at this and it doesn’t look illegitimate as far as what it is, what they say that they’re going to do. I was just trying to tease apart what does accreditation mean and what does it mean when the AVMA says we’re not going to accredit it, and people are like, “We’re doing it anyway,” and then they go on.
So I can add to that them, that’s a little bit different is that these people don’t have educational degree, so if they wanted to move on to have a bachelor’s degree in some science related degree or veterinary technology, they won’t be able to make that next step because they don’t have that associate’s degree. It also means that because it’s a non-standard pathway that they got credentialed in, if they decided to move to a different state and try to be credentialed in that state, they may not qualify. So they may not be able to practice in the way that they have been in the previous state. So it really, I think is a little bit more just to meet the needs of the hospital more so than trying to provide an opportunity for the people to continue growing and having a lifelong career.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I agree with that. Hey guys, I just want to hop in really quick and give a quick plug. The Uncharted Veterinary Conference is coming in April. Guys, I founded the Uncharted Veterinary Conference in 2017. It is a one-of-a-kind conference. It is all about business. It is about internal communications working effectively inside your practice. If you’re a leader, that means you can be a medical director. It means you can be an associate vet who really wants to work well with your technicians. It means you can be a head technician, a head CSR, you can be practice owner, practice manager, multi-site manager, multi-site medical director. We work with a lot of those people. This is all about building systems, setting expectations to work effectively with your people.
Guys, uncharted is a pure mentorship conference. That means that we come together and there is a lot of discussion. We create a significant percentage of the schedule, the agenda at the event, which means we are going to talk about the things that you are interested in. It is always, as I said, business communication focused but of freedom inside that to make sure that you get to talk about what you want to talk about. We really prioritize people being able to have one-on-one conversations to pick people’s brains, to get advice from people who have wrestled with the problems that they are currently wrestled with. We make all that stuff happen. If you want to come to a conference where you do not sit and get lectured at, but you work on your own practice, your own challenges, your own growth and development, that’s what Uncharted is. Take a chance, give us a look. Come and check it out. It is in April. I’ll put a link in the show notes for registration asking anybody who’s been, it’s something special. All right. Let’s get back into this episode.
The point you made earlier that I want to circle back to that I think is really, really great and I think is really true and people should know it. I have a friend who is Melissa in Trek who I know she’s amazing. She’s a passionate educator, a die hard technician advocate and technician herself. And she teaches at the technician program near me. So I was talking to her and we were talking about when people are considering the technician program, they come in and they talk to her about going into a veterinary technology and she shows them the numbers and she says, “This is what your average credential technician makes and these are what the other programs we have at this school make.” And she’s like, “They see the echo cardiology technician, which is basically the same length program and it’s five times more money.”
And she’s like, “I just lose a huge percentage of them because they go, I can do this or I can do that. And it’s not like you’re saying, it’s $5,000 difference a year. It’s like, no, the salary’s more than double if you go into these other things that you’re qualified for. You have a science background, you have an interest in physiology, medicine, things like that, you’re already leaning in that direction.” And she says, “No wonder we have have a hard time filling technician school classes and things.” And I think she’s right. And I think that that’s what you’re speaking to. So let me push you on this a little bit, and I want you to look into your crystal ball in five years from now. What do you think is different, Ken, as far as technicians and how they work that is helping us move in that direction?
There’s a lot of focus on technician utilization right now, and I think that we’re starting to realize that the fact that we’re losing people has a lot to do with people that feeling fulfilled in their career, which means that if they go through the schooling and they have a certain thought in their mind about how they’re going to function and they’re not being able to do the work that makes them feel meaning in their work is what’s leading to people leaving. So five years from now, hopefully all the concerted effort that’s going on right now is going to be fruitful that people in this field are going to learn how to utilize technicians better and will be utilized to the fullest extent and more people are going to be happy.
We’re doing things over here that’s called advanced practice veterinary nursing, which is at the highest level that we could have a credentialed technician, veterinary nurses here function, being able to take part in the physical examination process that they would make recommendations for treatments and while they perform the treatments, there’s a lot more advanced procedures that they could do on their own without feeling restricted by what’s normal for them to do. Those kinds of things will start happening where we start valuing the people who are very well-educated, very well experienced, combining the two to function in the way that we think they should be able to function.
And I think there’s certainly debates about whether we should be called veterinary nurses or veterinary technicians, but I do hope that we start to make the mindset shift that we are definitely in nursing in that it’s not just the science and technology that we handle. But it’s about the patient, it’s about the families, thinking about respecting all them and preserving their dignity through our care that [inaudible 00:23:2].
Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, there’s two pieces to opportunity for technicians I think. There must be a perceived value of technicians from inside of our profession, meaning the doctors need to allow the technicians to take work off their plate. The doctors need to recognize the value of technicians and say, “This is not a competitor for the spotlight. This is my friend, this is my colleague, this is my teammate.” And lean into that. So that has to happen for technician welfare to really improve. And I think that fixed a lot of things, that internal perception of drives the ability to pay people. But it also, and let’s be honest, I think a lot of times we talk about pay for technicians and pay for technicians and pay for technicians, and that is peace of it.
However, when I talk to technicians, pay is part of it, but I think at least as big a part is autonomy. It’s feeling empowered to be able to do work and to be involved and to make your own decisions and feel like you are having input and you’re not just an automaton waiting to be told what to do. That sucks. That’s not a career that educated and motivated people want to have. And honestly, I see at least as many techs leaving the profession because they feel like they’ve topped out, meaning there’s not more for them to do. Then the money. And I think the money is a constant drag of, hey, not only do I feel like I’ve topped out, but also I’ve topped out and I’m having a hard time paying my bills. And I think that’s a dark place to be, and I think that that’s why we’re losing tax at five years and seven years on average or whatever the number actually is. So I think that that’s so true.
The other part of this besides the internal perception of value is the external perception of value, which means in order for pet owners to pay for technician appointments, for technician services, for them to be willing to talk with the technician instead of the doctor, there has to be perceived value on the part of the pet owner. So when we talk about how we present our technicians, when we talk about what do we call our technicians, technicians or nurses, I think that there’s great value in using language that gets pet owners to see the value in the technicians. And I think it’s a worthy goal to say we’re going to educate them about what our technicians do. I think a whole lot easier path is to try to use language that they already understand and see value in.
And I understand that people don’t like the term vet nurse and I get it, and I’m not trying to argue with anybody. It’s just that I go, okay, well here’s the benefit. Regardless of how we do it, we have to get pet owners to see value in our technicians and not hold onto the old view of, “I want to talk to the doctor.” And you say, “Man, you don’t need to talk to the doctor. Quite honestly, you have a very competent person who is available and ready to talk to you and it’s not me.” And I think we have to do that internal sales job and that external sales job.
We talk about increased opportunities and things like that for technicians going forward, do you see more people or do you see driving factors in this being the technician specialties. Do you see more people doing VTS degrees or certifications in advanced areas? Do you see things like the master’s program at LMU starting to play a role in this advanced practicing or do you see an elevation of your classic credential technician, or a mixture of those things? Help me get my head around what this elevation, continued elevation looks like.
Yeah. So is there more interest in VTS certification? Yes, definitely each year, and I know the most about the ECC Academy side, but each time the number of applicant grows, each time the number of examinee grows and depending on the year, the passing rate for the exam might be lower or higher depending on how people did. But with that said, we’re having more and more VTS is out there that have a heightened sense of awareness of what they should be doing. When you say working with autonomy and being empowered to do all the advanced procedures and making their own judgments based on their thought process. I think that the VTS certification process is particularly strong in people having the knowledge and being able to perform the procedures that relate to the specialty area. What I think is still variable is among that, how much clinical decision making ability do they come with and through their experience to gain?
And I think that’s where the master’s degree type educational pathway would be very helpful is that if we’re very good with the technical skills and the nursing procedures, but we need more clinical judgment skills, then that’s where the master’s degree could probably fill in. And that’s what it’s really tailored to do. Yes, there’s conversations about whether there should be a nurse practitioner like role or physician’s assistant role in veterinary medicine right now. And I know that the LMU degree is preparing people for something like that to happen, and that’s part of the intent. But even without that happening, people going through that master’s degree, I would think that comes out with better clinical judgment skills that makes them better partners for care with the veterinarians.
The one thing that I wanted to mention about the previous comment that you made about autonomy and empowering, I think one of the articles that talked about this Washington State program even used the term veterinary technicians are the right hands of veterinarians. And I look at that description and say, “That’s not true.” We’re equal peers, we’re professionals in our own that we have people who practice veterinary medicine and we have people who practice veterinary nursing or technology, whichever term you want to use. So then we really need to change our mindset in veterinary medicine as a whole as well of what a professional we actually are.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I like that a lot. If you are a doctor listening to this and you are just in regular general practice and you’re looking around and you have some credentialed techs that work with you and things and you said, “I want to work more collaborative with my technicians, or I want my practice to be a place that has some upper mobility for my technicians, or I really want to leverage my technicians and get a lot out of them and also give them a rewarding path to follow. But I don’t know where to get started or even what this looks like.” How do you advise people, Ken? People who say, “I only know the way that I was raised in the profession, but I want to see what the future might look like or I want to embrace technicians as colleagues, as teammates, as you said, I don’t know where to start.” How would you advise people?
I think that’s one of the things that we’re all trying to figure out how to change the culture of veterinary medicine. There’s definitely conversations about if there were more veterinary and veterinary technology or nursing programs that were housed in the same campus and they learn side by side, would they have much better collaborative relationship to start out? And we have to start from the people coming into the field in order to truly change the culture. But I think just even asking that question to the people who are in the practice would be a really great place, place to start because who would be the best to give you more information about how we can work better together? Probably the people that you work with.
But there are definitely a lot of resources that are out there that the people who are out in the conference circuit talking about team-based veterinary care, how do you utilize technicians better? I think there’s all sorts of resources out there that we can take a look at. And I would also want the point with the great work that NAVTA’s doing these days in promoting and advocating for technicians and they can be as a resource as well.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I love it. I’ll tell you in my own practice things I’ve found to be helpful just for doctors, they’re scared of letting go of the reins or saying, “This is how it’s always worked, and I don’t know about changing it.” Pilot programs are your friend. I think just saying, “Hey, let’s try this for a little while and see how it goes, and then we’ll reassess.” I think that’s a good way of starting to give your technicians more space in a way that the doctors can go, “Okay. Well, we’re all going to try this and we’re going to work with it.” I think that that’s good. I really love what you said about talking to your technicians. I think this is a collaborative experience and say, “What are your interests and how do you see engaging in this system?” And I just think that that’s such a healthy way to do it.
And the last thing I say is, if we’re going to make changes the way we practice, everybody needs to know what the goal is and feel safe. So a lot of times what happens is, I would say sit down and figure out how the doctors and technicians might work together in your practice in a way that would be mutually beneficial. And then step back and say, “Great. That’s where we want to go. What are the steps between now and there so that everybody feels comfortable and everybody’s trained, that everybody’s on the same page, and how do we break those steps up and how do we put them on the calendar and how do we slowly over the course of a year start to move in this direction again?” So you moving in a methodical way and you’re supporting people who are taking on new things. And this is the part a lot of people miss. How are you supporting the doctors who are giving things up? Because they often struggle a lot too.
So I feel like this is a gradual process, but I love that you say talk to the tech. I think that communication is absolutely key. But anyway, it’s just something I’ve been thinking a lot about and been working on them own business recently, so anyway. Hey Ken. Thank you so, so much for being here. Where can people find you? Where can they learn more about VEG and NAVTA?
For NAVTA, it’s navta.net, it’s the website. VEG is veg.com. I am also on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook or something like that. I post regularly. So would love to see a lot more of you having some of these conversations. I put out questions related to the profession out there all the time now.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Cool. Awesome. Thanks for being here buddy. Guys, take care of yourselves. Thanks for listening. Thanks for being here. Be well. And that’s our episode guys. Thanks for being here. Thanks to Ken Yagi for coming on and sharing his wisdom. If you enjoy this episode, if you got something out of it, go ahead and leave me in the rush review wherever you get your podcast. That means the world to me. Share it with your friends. It’s also how people find the show. Anyway, that’s it from me, gang. Take care of yourselves. I’ll talk to you soon. Bye.