Dr. Cherie Buisson joins the podcast to discuss the idea that, deep down, none of us think we belong here. We think we’re not moving fast enough, that we’re not smart enough, and that we’re not accomplishing what we should be accomplishing (or what others are accomplishing). Why do we have these thoughts, and more importantly, what do we do about them?
You can also listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, Soundcloud, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts!
LINKS
A Happy Vet: https://ahappyvet.com/
Helping Hands Pet Hospice: https://helpinghandspethospice.com/
Dr. Andy Roark Exam Room Communication Tool Box Course: https://drandyroark.com/on-demand-staff-training/
What’s on my Scrubs?! Card Game: https://drandyroark.com/training-tools/
Dr. Andy Roark Swag: drandyroark.com/shop
All Links: linktr.ee/DrAndyRoark
ABOUT OUR GUEST
Dr. Buisson wasn’t (and isn’t!) always A Happy Vet. In fact, for many years, she was An Unhappy Vet. Despite working in wonderful practices with compassionate mentors, she always felt she didn’t fit in. She found private practice draining and felt like a failure for her inability to be “a real vet”. She learned the hard way for two decades, and her mission is to provide veterinary professionals with the tools to find their happiness and to help them be comfortable if they take a nontraditional approach. She believes it’s never too late to find your place, but there’s nothing wrong with starting early!
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.
Dr. Andy Roark:
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Dr. Andy Roark:
Welcome everybody to the Cone of Shame Veterinary podcast. I am your host, Dr. Andy Roark. I am here with my friend today, the one and only Dr. Cherie Buisson. She was highly requested when I put out a call to say, “Hey, what was the best lecture you ever saw and who gave it? Because I’d like to talk to him on the podcast.” She was on the list and got a number of little up votes. And I know Cherie and I agree that she does a heck of a lecture, and she is awesome to listen to. And so she’s on today talking about imposter syndrome and finding her place in vet medicine. This is a fun conversation. We get into a lot of different stuff. It’s sprawling, there’s lots of stories being told. Lots of laughs. I think the world of her guys. I hope you are going to enjoy this one. Let’s get into it.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter:
(Singing).
Dr. Andy Roark:
Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Cherie Buisson. Thanks for being here.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Hey, thanks for having me. It’s exciting to be here and I’m so glad to see you again. It’s been forever.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It’s been a minute.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
It’s been a minute.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It’s been pre-pandemic since you and I got to hang out. Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Oh gosh.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I know. I haven’t seen you since then. Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Wow. That’s a long time.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It was 2020 and then it’s 2022 and here we are.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Yeah. All right.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. For those who don’t know you, Dr. Cherie Buisson is a practicing veterinarian. She is a hospice veterinarian in Largo, Florida. She is certified hospice and palliative care specialist, and she is the brains behind A Happy Vet, which is a website online with a lot of mental health and wellness resources for vet professionals. And so that is Cherie. We met back in the day when I was running the Dr. Andy Roark website, and she just submitted an article out of the blue. And I was like, “This is amazing.” And then she started writing more and more. And then she started getting asked to speak and present on the things that she had written, which were amazing. And then I got to see her just take off like a rocket in our profession, and she is an outstanding presenter and speaker. And if you get the chance to see her in the post-COVID world, you should totally do that. And so Cherie, welcome and thanks for being here.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Thanks so much. I really appreciate it.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh man.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Gosh, it has been a really long time. That was 2017 when I submitted that article and I thought, “Wouldn’t it be cool if somebody like Andy Roark picked this up?” And then all of a sudden I had messages from you on every platform. And I was like, “Wow.” Talk about asking the universe for something. That was awesome.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you were writing a lot of fascinating stuff. I think one of the things that you have really contributed to this profession, more than anybody, I will go that far.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Oh wow.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And say I think one of the things that you really put a stamp on, and that you said before anybody else was talking about it, you talked about imposter syndrome. And I think that was one of the first things that I really remember you writing about was imposter syndrome. And you were writing about euthanasia and hospice care early on as well. But I think, and correct me if I’m wrong, I think the thing that’s probably resonated the most with people, I think was your writings specifically on imposter syndrome. I hadn’t heard a lot about it back when you started, and then that’s where your career came from.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Yes. And the term imposter syndrome has been around since the seventies, so it’s nothing new and it’s nothing I came up with. But man, when you’re struggling in the vet profession and you feel like you don’t belong here, if you’re a geek, you start looking stuff up and you’re like, “There’s got to be an explanation for this.” And I don’t even remember where I heard it first or if I just came upon it on the internet, but I was like, “Oh, this explains so much.” And I thought this is something the students need to hear, because if I had known that as a student, that most of the people in my class felt that way … Because I think there’s this bravado that we all put on, like we know what we’re doing and we’re confident, and we’re freaking out completely on the inside. And I think there wasn’t a push for vulnerability back then. So everybody was just like, “Oh, everyone is so much smarter than me and I don’t belong here.”
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
And I felt that way, I still feel that way sometimes and it’s been 22 years since I graduated. I think it’s just something, if we can start and let the students know it’s a thing, then I think … I watch their faces light up in an audience. It cracks me up, because I can always tell who the students are, because their jaw drops and their eyes get big. And then they’re like, “Oh yeah. Okay. That’s me.” So it makes me so happy to see them go, “Oh, okay. I’m not alone. Everything is fine.” I do think that we’ve gotten … Everybody found out about it and now it’s this cliche thing. “Oh, there’s my imposter syndrome.” And I think there’s more being said about how maybe it’s not so much imposter syndrome in a lot of places that it’s more toxic workplaces and discrimination, that you don’t feel this way because something’s wrong with you.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
There’s something wrong with the world.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Right.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
I do think we’ve put it on individuals, “Well, if you feel this way, you need to fix it.” And I think that’s something we need to lean away from. We need to take responsibility for ourselves, but we also need to address the fact that systemically there are problems that cause people who are marginalized to feel even more marginalized.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Sure.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
And we need to address that. So hopefully we’re working on that, but it’s not a small problem for sure.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I just want to make sure I understand this too. So it’s funny, I don’t think of imposter syndrome as being a vet student thing at all. To me, I look around at everyone else that I know, and I guess I’m at a place in my career where I am fortunate, humble brag, I get to visit with the people in the C-suites and CEOs of big vet companies. You know what I mean? And I know people who own seven vet practices and I know that they still have imposter syndrome. They probably more so because they’re like, “There’s 300 people that work for me, that they have no idea who I am. They clearly don’t know that I was not supposed to get this job.” And it’s funny. So that’s the mindset that I have is in high performing people, whether they’re associate doctors or whether they’re people who own practice groups being affected by this. And it’s just funny to me that you see it on the faces of the vet students, which totally makes sense, but it’s not at all the lens that I was looking at it through.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
And it’s just because as a vet I remember feeling that way, like I was the dumbest one in my class. I graduated third in my class. Okay. So I wasn’t …
Dr. Andy Roark:
You weren’t quite the dumbest.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
No.
Dr. Andy Roark:
You weren’t quite the dumbest.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
And not that the last person that graduated at our class was the dumbest, because not everybody’s good at school, but that was always my thing is that I’m good at school. So I was like, “How am I going to be a veterinarian when school stops? Because I’m good at school. That’s what I do.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
That’s funny.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
And so I was like, “If somebody had just told me, or if I had shared that and maybe they do better in vet school now and the students share, “Hey, I feel really worried about this,” or, “I’m upset about this.” But I was just in this room full of geniuses and I was like, “How did I get here?” And I talked to another veterinarian who I just love. And he was telling me that when he graduated, he didn’t know they didn’t put your diploma in the envelope or cardboard thing that they hand you.
Dr. Andy Roark:
In the tube, in the tube that they give you.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
In the tube.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
So when he opened it, he thought, “Oh my God, they just didn’t want to embarrass me in front of my family. I didn’t graduate.” And it made me laugh, but it didn’t even surprise me. I was like, “Yeah, I can see that. Totally.” They handed us a cardboard folder, whatever a pleather folder. And we knew our diplomas weren’t going to be in there. And then funnily enough, they misspelled our graduation date on the things. We all had to give our diplomas back and get them back. Yeah. It’s just the more people I talk to the more I hear it, “I don’t know what I’m doing here. I just feel like I don’t belong here.”
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
So if everybody feels that way, maybe that means we all belong here? I think that’s where we need to come from. I had great mentors and they respected students and young veterinarians and were very supportive and like, “Hey, take it easy on yourself. You’re learning.” But I think for new vets too, it gets really hard because in a lot of practices everybody’s real supportive in the beginning, and then once they feel like you should have your feet under you, they’re like, “You’re not going fast enough.” And then it just goes downhill from there. You’re just like, “I can’t keep up and I can’t do this.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Do you think that is a failing in our profession? So you say if none of us feel like we are supposed to be here, I think it’s always hard to speak in generalizations, but I definitely get the impression that a lot of us feel like we’re not supposed to be here especially early in our career. Is that a failing in our training you think? Or is that an inevitable part of being a human being?
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Well, I think part of it is the selection process for veterinary school is that they tend to select for lack of better terms, anal retentive, perfectionists.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. They’re going for the people who are third in their class and think that they’re not supposed to be there. That’s who they go for.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Right, right. If it’s not perfect, we didn’t accomplish it, I think is how a lot of us feel. And so when we have cases that go wrong, we’re like, “Oh it must be me,” instead of, “Oh, it must be nature.” Because this is how this works.” Sometimes perfectly healthy things just pass away and we don’t know why or sometimes anesthesia problems happen and we don’t know why. Although I’m sure the anesthesia nerds have an explanation for that and that’s why I love them.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh yeah. They’re great.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
They’re fantastic. But I think it’s not realistic. Our whole thing of, “I love animals, but I don’t maybe so much love people so I should be a veterinarian.” I think there’s just, we start off on the wrong foot with, “I need to be perfect. I need to get straight. I need to get it right all the time.” And there’s no way for that to happen ever.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
You’re going to screw up. You’re going to have patients that die for no reason. You’re going to have patients that die because of you. And if you’re like me, all of them do because that’s what I do for a living now.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Right, yeah. It’s different when you’re hospice. Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
I never, never would have thought that that’s what I wanted to do. And so I just think we need change in that we just need to let everybody know it’s okay. I feel like all vet students need a letter that’s like, “Here, you’re going to feel like you suck and you don’t belong here. That’s crap. Here, you’re not going to get everything right, and that’s expected.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
I think our expectations are so far from what reality really is. And a lot of us, this is what we wanted to be since we were kids and kids don’t have logical, smart ways to look at the world. So we’re just like, “Oh, I want to play with puppies and kittens all day.” And that’s not what it is.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. I had this theory. I wrote about it in a article that came out just last month. So it came out I think in the July Today’s Vet Business, but I’ve got this idea, Cherie, that we need more graduations. And my theory is this. Okay. When we talk about graduations, the point of a graduation is supposed to be end one chapter of the life and move on to the next chapter. So it’s based on these rituals of adulthood, where you no longer a child and now you are a grown up and now you’re a member of the tribe and things like that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And so I think that we don’t do a good job of ending college and beginning vet school and saying, “This is not college anymore. This is different and you’re going to learn differently and the expectations are going to be different.” And then I think we really don’t do a good job, and I don’t think it’s on anyone at the schools don’t get me wrong, but I think that we have trained ourselves so that we do the thing and we sit through the ceremony at the end and then we go on and we don’t really think about it. I’ll say, I don’t remember the graduation being a transformational moment for me at all. It was a scheduling challenge that I had to fit on my day and I had to go and do the thing. And I was like, “Oh, I got to make sure I eat before I go, because I don’t want to be angry for photos afterwards.” Then that was as much as I had, I just went on.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Because I was like, “I’m going to graduate. It’s going to happen.” And I think that we need more graduations, which are like, “Hey, you are not in school anymore. You are not meant to get everything and you’re going to work with people and that you can’t get everything right with people because they don’t work that way. And people are not going to have the money that you need to do the things that you want to do. And you are going to be doing your best with a pile of unfortunate circumstances, things that are beyond your control and that’s not failure. That’s what you’re doing now.” You know what I mean?
Dr. Andy Roark:
But I think that a lot of us never really put school behind us and the idea that we needed to get the A and we needed to get it right. And everybody needed to like us and be happy. And so that’s my idea with imposter syndrome is I wish that we could really put people through a graduation that would say, “You’re no longer a student. You are a professional with a CVT or a DVM. And this is what you do for a living, which means you make recommendations. You make hard choices. Some people don’t like what you have to tell them. You’re not going to have all the answers. You can’t fix all the things, welcome aboard because this is what you do now.” And so I don’t know. Does that make any sense when I say it?
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Yes. I love it. Because I read that article. Now that you’re saying it, I’m like, “Oh yeah, I remember reading that,” and I agree. The difference for me, I went from not being able to do anything without direct supervision, to being able to do whatever I wanted with no supervision in 15 minutes. And I was just like, “How is that? Yesterday I didn’t know anything and today I’m supposed to know everything.” And I think that’s perfectly said, you graduate and it’s a graduation but there’s no handbook.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
You can’t even get Dr. Spock’s How to Survive Your First Year of Med School. Although there are books now that cover that, or your first year as a veterinarian. But yeah, I think we don’t give that the credit it deserves for how hard it is to do that. I remember seeing a case of flea allergy and I live in Florida, everything’s a case of flea allergy. And I didn’t know what to do with it because I didn’t … How do I work this up? What do we do? And my boss was like, “It’s flea allergy, put some advantage on him and give him a shot of steroids and let’s go on his way.” And I was just like, “Yeah, they didn’t teach me that in school.”
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
And I was involved in the advantage clinical trials. So I knew, but it wasn’t practical for what I needed. And it just wasn’t something that I was used to seeing. Apparently I didn’t get any flea infested dogs in Mississippi when I was on community practice. It was probably wintertime. It might have been wintertime. So I don’t know, but it was just so odd to me and I felt so stupid. I was like, “He’s going to fire me now.” And I think that’s another big component to imposter syndrome is people, if you have good mentors, they will tell you. My boss went to the ends of the earth to tell me how much he appreciated me, how great a job I was doing. And I was like, “Oh my God, I’m going to get fired.” What?
Dr. Andy Roark:
As soon as he started saying nice things, you were like, “This is it. He’s setting it up.”
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Yeah. I’m like, “This is it. He’s going to fire me.” And then I was lucky. Some graduates get bosses who gaslight them and are mean to them.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
I can’t even imagine how you get through that. So yeah, I think there’s a whole host of mess that we all have to get through to do this. And we are just thrown in the deep end and it’s like pin a $20 bill to your collar and wish you the best of luck, have at it.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Hey everybody, I’m just jumping in with two lightning, fast updates. Number one, if you have not gotten signed up for the Get (censored) Done shorthanded virtual conference in October, it’s October 6th through the 8th, you need to do that. If you are feeling overwhelmed in your practice, that you want things to go smoother and faster. If you do not want to watch webinars, you want to actually talk about your practice. You want to do some discussion groups. You want to do some workshops where you actually make things and work on things and ask questions as we go along and have round table discussions and things like that, that’s really going to energize you and help you figure out actionable solutions that you can immediately put into practice to make your life simpler and more relaxed. I got you covered buddy, but you don’t want to miss it. Go ahead and get registered.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Mark yourself off at the clinic for the time so that you can be here and be present and really take advantage of this. I don’t want it to sneak up on you. I know October seems like a long way away. It’s not, but go ahead. I’m going to put a link down below and then when registration opens, we’ll let you know it’s open and you can grab your spot. But you do not want to sneak up on you. Check out our Get (censored) Done shorthanded conference. It’s going to be a great one. The second thing I’m going to tell you about is Banfield. Thank you to Banfield the Pet Hospital for making transcripts of this podcast available. You can find them at drandyroark.com. They are totally free and open to the public and Banfield supports us increase accessibility and inclusion in our profession. It’s a wonderful thing that they do. Guys, that’s all I got. Let’s get back into this episode.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I want to just switch to conversation here a little bit, because you’re going right into a really interesting place. You’ve had a very non-traditional sort of career. And so you started off when we talk about imposter syndrome and I think it’s interesting that you come out of vet school and you’re third in your class and you’re like, “I’m not meant to be here,” and this sort of experience. Talk to me a bit about finding your way in vet medicine and because that’s something that you speak a lot about and it’s something that you’re known for. Yeah. Walk me through what your path was as you explored vet medicine coming out of this training out this training program that we all go through.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
I started very traditional in a private practice, dogs, cats and exotics. Not a lot of exotics, but some. It was a two practice, so I went back and forth between two practices. I had fantastic mentors, fantastic. The doctors placed me in the hands of my CVTs and they were like, “Ask them anything.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
I love those. I love those techs.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh man.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
And then they had to pull me in the office and say, “Ask them anything but not where the client can hear you.” So I had that happen one time and I was like, “Oh my god, they’re going to fire me.” And then I realized that I have a little … We didn’t have … I’m sure it was around, but training fear free and low stress handling were not a thing. Back then we did the wrestle, WrestleMania and I got beaten up by way too many big dogs, which god helped me was not their fault at all. It was all me not knowing what to do with them.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
And I had an affinity for feline medicine, so I actually moved to a feline only practice. Again, fantastic mentor. A woman, so someone who looked like me in VetMed, which was something I had seen, I had female professors at the university, but my first job I worked for two men. And so she was just amazing and so the kind of boss that I still try to be today, just fantastic. And we’re still really close friends. And so I did feline medicine for a while and I was going to buy her practice and that plan fell through.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
And I had already acknowledged and decided the things I was going to change that were making my life stressful. And when it turned out that she was going to stay my boss and I was going to stay the associate, I was like, “Okay, I can’t do this anymore. Because I now want things to be my way.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
And for whatever reason, then I transferred to shelter medicine where things are never your way.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I was going to say, cause that’s where you get things your way. Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Yeah. I was my own boss and it was cool. I did get to plan out, really design the medical department that hadn’t been updated in years and years and that kind of thing. So I did shelter medicine. I loved spays and neuters and I loved being able to take care of pets without owners involved, which at the time I really burned out in practice because of owners, partially because I had no training in how to communicate with them. I took everything personally and felt like a failure every time things didn’t go perfectly with a client, which how often do they really?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
So I did shelter medicine and was able to help these pets. I had financial constraints and I had a board of directors to answer to, but I felt more brave. I tried surgeries that would save a life because there were no consequences if it went wrong. I knew I had tried, whereas on a client’s animal, I would’ve been much more stressed about that. And it really rounded out my professional life. The politics of being in a shelter was again too much for me, and I ended up with compassion fatigue, and burnout all at the same time, which is a special kind of hell.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
And so I decided I really did need to be my own boss. I need to make my own rules. And I don’t know why I didn’t know that because I’ve been that way my entire life. I don’t like people telling me what to do. I like to do my own thing. I’m very obedient when I have a boss, but I don’t like it. So I moved on to relief work, which was shelter stuff, high quality, high volume spay/neuter. And then that, I did that for a while. Totally beat myself up doing way too many surgeries and had wrist and hand problems.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
And I had a colleague ask me to do some relief work for a home euthanasia practice. And I really didn’t want to. I was like, “This sounds like the worst job ever.” But I had lost a big client, I needed the money and I was like, “All right. I’m going to give this a try. I can always back out.” Which I think is something else that vet professionals, we feel like we have to marry something every time it comes up. I’ve been committed to vet medicine since I was 13, and so I have a hard time just trying things. If I’m not going to succeed at it and I’m not going to love it, I will stick with it even if it’s not good for me. So I think that’s another thing that we do is we feel like we have to commit to everything forever.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
I was like, “I’ll try it and see if I like it.” And the first one that I went to, I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is what I’m supposed to be doing.” I was observing so I’m terrible at that, so I cried through the whole thing and then the client hands me the Rainbow Bridge Poem and asked me to read it, which I can’t read without crying in my office.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
I know what’s coming. I know, but it’s like Steel Magnolia’s level ugly crying that I do if I have to. So I had to read this whole poem out loud through my tears crying. I was like, “Oh this is so embarrassing.” And I got out the door and the other veterinarian put her arm around me and she’s like, “You are going to be so good at this.” And I was like, “Okay, if you say so.”
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
And so then yeah, it went from there. I worked for her for a few years and then went back to regular relief for a while and then opened my own practice back in 2015 now. We just had our seventh anniversary and it’s just been a ride, but I’ve learned a lot about trying new things, especially with my practice because the wellness portion of my career is really important to me and I needed wellness and I wanted my team to have wellness. And veterinary medicine tells you that’s not possible, and I won’t say we do it great all the time, but we really try and I try to be open. I’m like, “All right, we’ll try this for three weeks. And then if we don’t like or if I don’t like it, we’re going to go back.” Because I’m the boss and I say so.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Have a fancy name for that. We call that pilot programs and it makes me sound smart.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And it’s the same thing.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Oh.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It’s like you say, Cherie, you say to the team, “We’re going to do a pilot program.”
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
That sounds so much better.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. We’re going to roll this out for three weeks and then we’re going to see if we want to expand the program. And that’s how you say basically I’m going to try it. And if I don’t like it, we’re going to stop. But you don’t say it that way.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
I love pilot program.
Dr. Andy Roark:
You say it in business speak. Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
And especially now with Top Gun being out, you sound Tom Cruise level cool. We’re going to have this pilot. I feel like I could have the glasses and leather jacket.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I wear Ray-Bans when I say it. Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Oh man, I have Ray-Bans in the car. I’m going to have to put them on.
Dr. Andy Roark:
There you go. That’s what you do.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Oh, I love it. I love it. Yeah. It’s given me that kind of freedom to try new things and see what I like and what I don’t like and not be afraid to say, “That didn’t work at all.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
“We’re not doing that again.” And I just had one of those moments this morning. My other doctor and I, and our receptionist were scrambling to try to help a family. And we were trying to figure things out and we’re texting and it was crazy. And we called the lady and she had found help elsewhere or she had gone to the vet in the middle of the night or something. And I was like, “Okay, this is the thousandth time we’ve done this.” And like you always say on your Uncharted podcast, “This is now practice policy.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. It’s a surprise.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
So we need to change it.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
I was like, “Okay, why don’t we instead call people and see where they are and what they need. And then we’ll figure out how to help them if they actually need help.” And it’s just something as simple as that. Whereas before I would keep doing this and keep doing this and beating my head against the wall. And so we changed our hours multiple times. We used to be open 8:00 AM to 8:00 PM as far as answering phones. Now it’s eight to four because that’s what my team needed for their family life.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
And I hired people I wanted and they were like, “Hey, we got to be out of here by four to take care of kids or whatever they need to do.” And I was like, all well, we’ll try closing at four and I’ll keep an eye on how many things we’re missing between four and 5:30, which is where we had gotten back down to. And then we just changed that if people are having a problem with something I’m like, “Okay, well let’s try something. Let’s see what,” instead of that whole, we do it this way and that’s the only way and like it or leave it. I just feel like that doesn’t get us anywhere.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I love that so much. And I think that there are these maxims in vet medicine, the sacred cows that are not to be touched, that people grab onto what I mean? And this sounds so simple, but there’s so much of our careers that we have more power over than we think. So I remember during the pandemic, I run an Uncharted veterinary community for those who are not familiar with that, but it’s a leadership development community for veterinarians and vet leaders. And anyway, during the pandemic we had people burning out left and center and their staff was leaving and things.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And the idea came up, this, “We need to close another day a week.” And at first when that was said, it was like, “This is heresy.” You know what I mean? There are so many people who are like, “We can’t just take Wednesday off.” And the truth is you can.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Yeah, you can.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, you can. It takes some planning, but it’s not written down anywhere that vet clinics shall be open on Wednesdays or even that clinic shall be open on Saturdays. And we’ve had a lot of clinics that Uncharted that were like, “Hey, we’re small staff and our people are burning out and we’re taking the weekends off. We’re not working on Saturdays.”
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
I’ve worked for two of those practices in my hometown. The cat practices that were open Monday through Friday and one of them closes a half day on Wednesday. And you know what? They are so busy, they don’t know what to do with themselves.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Exactly.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
And I remember my first boss, when the cat hospital, when she decided to close on weekends, she was like, “I don’t know if I can do this.” And her doctor told her because she had gotten shingles, she was like, “You’re either going to see less of the clinic or more of me. Take your pick.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
And she was like, “Yes, ma’am.” And she shut it and she said there were probably three people out of all of her clients that left the practice because they could not be seen on the weekend.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Three. And I think we underestimate how many people see us on Saturdays because it’s convenient as opposed to that they absolutely can’t. And no matter what you do, you’re going to lose people. I’ve heard practices that are like, “We just need to be open 24 hours.” And I’m like, “Okay. Well, no.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
If you can find the people who want to do that great. And for emergency clinics obviously, but we even have an emergency clinic that they’re open specified hours. They’re 24 hours on the weekends and holidays, but not during the week. They close and they refer to other places and it takes some shuffling around and it’s hard but if we have a shortage of team members, largely our own fault because we work people to death for very little pay. And I worry about that all the time and I pay quite a bit more for my team than most of the local practices. And they work from home.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
They deal with clients on the phone. They’re not in person. People tell, “We just can’t afford that.” And I’m like, “I make way less money than you do and I can afford it.” I make sure to, and yes, I have to make sacrifices for that. And sometimes I’m like, “Why am I doing this?” But I have wonderful team members who are here with us and say it’s the best job that they’ve ever had, which means the world to me and people are looking for something different. And I don’t think anybody likes the grind. And when work becomes a grind, especially something like this, that’s a passion for you, having it become a grind is just the key to burnout and being miserable.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Right.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
And I will say, I burned out completely during the pandemic too. Because when you work until you get sick and then you don’t get sick, that’s a really stupid plan.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. That was the plan.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
That was the plan. I was like, “We’ll be sick. Between my husband and I, we’ll probably not be able to go out into the world for a month.” Because back in the beginning it was two weeks for each person that got sick and I was like, “Plan to be out of work for a month. I’m going to work my butt off and then take a month in bed with COVID,” and that didn’t happen. I caught COVID this past April for the first time that I know of.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh man.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Best laid plans of veterinarians.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, there you go.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
And stuff.
Dr. Andy Roark:
My favorite piece of career advice, which is so dumb, but it’s true, it’s figure out how to do more of what you like and figure out how to do less of what you don’t like.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And then just repeat it and repeat it and repeat it. That blows some people’s minds and it sounds so simple, but it’s true. And it’s just what do you like to do? I remember when I was working full time as a veterinarian and I had little kids and I was just writing at night and on the weekends and I was going some to some conferences to present. As long as I could get there after work on Friday so I could get speak on Saturday, then I would do the job. But I was doing all this stuff and finally I was like, “I’m not going to work full time anymore in the clinic.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
And that just felt, I don’t know, like some taboo thing to be like, “I’m not going to work four days a week and every other Saturday. I’m going to work three days a week and every other Saturday and I’m going to take Fridays off.” And I told my boss that I was like, “This is what I need.” And I think so many people just can’t imagine themselves saying, “Well, this is what I’m going to do.” You can do that. It’s allowed. And of course I did not go. I don’t want to just sound like I unilaterally said to my boss, “This is how it is.” No. I went and I said, “I have an idea and this is what I would like to do. And I can see how it could work here as well.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
And at that point it was back when things were slow sometimes and she was happy to not pay me 18% of my salary or whatever it worked out to be for me to cut down to that. So she was happy to get the cost off the books and I was happy to get the free time and it worked out. But yeah, it’s funny how much control you have and I think your story’s great. Moving around through the rooms of vet medicine, it’s a big house. There’s a lot of rooms.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Yes, I love that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I think it’s also [inaudible 00:34:31] to try that. So if you could go back knowing what now, just in regard to finding your place in the profession, what advice would you give to young Cherie, if you could?
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Ooh, I did a whole lecture on this. I post it every year at graduation.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I need about a three-minute answer here.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
They told me 10 minutes and I pushed it to 20, so I’ll try to be good. Yeah. I think just to do what makes you happy and to speak up. I think there’s a lot of … I know, I was raised in Louisiana and Florida. I’m a good Southern girl. We don’t like to make people uncomfortable. We don’t like to have uncomfortable conversations. We are just pretty and we sit nice and we do the things to make everyone happy and comfortable so no one’s uncomfortable. And then you are uncomfortable all the time.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, then you live your life uncomfortable. Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Yeah. And I’m 47 now. I’m still uncomfortable having uncomfortable conversations. But I think getting comfortable with that and I think take a communications course for the love of God. Please take a communications course and learn how to talk to people and learn how to not take what they say personally. But yeah, I think those things, now I look and I’m like, “Yeah, get therapy because it’s super helpful. Meditate.” If I could go back and make myself meditate. I think that would’ve been great. But sometimes you just got to find things when it’s your time to find things.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I’ve had that thought a lot recently just of there are so many things that I do now in my forties that I’m like, “God, why didn’t I start doing this when I was 30?”
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Right?
Dr. Andy Roark:
And I don’t know that you could’ve talked me into it when I was 30.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Yes.
Dr. Andy Roark:
So meditating or I don’t know, I’m trying to think of the other stuff that I do. I have a-
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Saving money.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Saving money, yeah. All those sorts of things where I go, “Why didn’t I pick this up earlier?” I’ve got been cooking a lot recently and I really enjoy it. And I’m like, “All of the money I could have saved in my twenties cooking for myself instead of eating out every meal,” just basic stuff like that.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Also just the enjoyment I would’ve had of doing a hobby that I didn’t find until much later on. But I think you find it when you find it.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Oh yeah, for sure. And I think lost myself. Cherie the vet became my entire persona and Cherie the person didn’t really matter. We just ran her to death until she was like, “Okay, that’s it. I’m sick now. And now we have to be Cherie the person in bed with a thermometer in your mouth because you overdid it.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Just that balance and that it’s not a balance of work is 50% and your personal life is 50%. It’s a constant shift and it’s like yoga. You’ve just got to keep your balance. You’re going to sway one way or the other. And I really just wish I could have told myself, “Just sit back and enjoy it,” because it’s such a great ride. And 22 years later looking back and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, I’ve had such an exciting career and such a diverse career.” And I’m so glad I tried the things that I did because being an anxious person, I have a lot of problems trying new things and potentially failing at them, to just try stuff if it interests me and just to go for it and see. Good luck. My whole career is based on something I didn’t want to even try.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
And I was forced to by circumstances and look how great it turned out. And now I’m doing what I want to do. And I think too, just not being so hung up on what vet medicine is right now and how you have to run a practice. There are practices that run a bit like mine, but I’ve never seen one that’s so schedule friendly. It’s a lot of work on me when somebody says, “Hey, I’m taking vacation,” and somebody else goes, “Oh, I’m going too.” And it’s like, “Oh, why did I do this? Why don’t I have those rules where new one goes on vacation without my permission.” But then I look at how people want to stay and want to work and it’s worth it. It’s fine.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
And I just love everybody of being their own boss and they have to work within the confines of my practice, but there’s not that I am the boss and you must do what I say or else. We are a co-op I think of people. And so far I like it, but I’m glad I had the experiences that I had, otherwise I might not have been brave enough to try this. And I still, at times I’m like, “Am I doing the right thing? Is this that imposter syndrome?” It’s like, “Oh gosh, am I qualified to be somebody’s boss? I can’t even manage my own life.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
I’ll bet, yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
“Could I really run this business?” And then my accountant’s like, “Hell yeah, you can look at these numbers. You’re doing great.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
It’s like, “Okay. All right. All right, I’ll believe it.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
All right.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
“Now that you’re showing it to me in black and white, I can do it.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
I know. Talking to a guy who owns a veterinary conference.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I can’t believe there’s not some ruling body that has to sign off on that, but they don’t.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
I love that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I waited for three years for the AVMA to show up and shut me down. I’m like, “I don’t know if they have that power, but I feel like they should.” But no, they don’t. They don’t.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
You just go for it.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
You just do it and it works out. Dr. Cherie Buisson, you are amazing. Thank you so much for being here. Where can people find you online? Where can they read your stuff and get more of your wisdom?
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
They can find me ahappyvet.com, which is my website for wellness in the vet profession. We’re very active on Facebook. I’ve been neglecting it a bit lately because Helping Hands, which is my hospice practice has been busy. If you are interested in hospice and palliative care, helpinghandspethospice.com is my website for my mobile practice. So you can reach me at either of those places and my email address and my phone number are on there so you can contact me if you’re interested. But I’m so happy that you contacted me to come do this, because I’ve been missing the camaraderie and seeing your face and talking to you. It’s been great.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Do you want to tell a story about where this came from? Where this podcast came from?
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Okay, I will.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Because I [inaudible 00:41:01] when you told me this. Okay.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
I will. Okay.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Okay. Tell it, because this is great.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Andy had a post asking for people’s favorite lectures. And I think it even said that you were looking for people to interview for your podcast.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, it did.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
But you were just like, “I want to know your favorite lectures” and it came across and I was afraid to read the comments because I really wanted somebody to mention me. And I was, “Oh, the irony of that.” And what’s hilarious is that the person that mentioned me actually specifically mentioned imposter syndrome, which cracks me up because I was like all imposter-y, like, “Everyone else is going to get loved and I am not going to get loved ever.” I watched it for a couple of days. This is so embarrassing. And finally somebody did post and said something about me. And my thought that ran through my head completely some subconsciously, but it came up was, “Oh, thank God. I’m for real.”
Dr. Andy Roark:
Thank god, I needed that.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
That was what came up. Yes. Thank God. I am actually a human being who got some recognition, so that’s all good.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I needed that validation. Someone in the comments.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Yeah. I needed that validation. Someone in the comments on Facebook validated me.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh yeah. So true.
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
So my career is meaningful and I was like, “Okay.” Yeah. And I think I actually talked to my therapist about it that week. I was like, “You are not going to believe how worried I was about this.” And she just cracked up and shook her head.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Humans are strange animals, aren’t we?
Dr. Cherie Buisson:
Yeah. That’s why I don’t work on them.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh man. Yeah. That’s a good call. All right, I think that’s the last word of wisdom on this side. I think that’s great insight. All right. Thanks Cherie. Hey everybody, take care of yourselves. I’ll talk to you next week.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And that is our episode guys. I hope you enjoyed it. Thanks so much to Cherie Buisson she’s incredible. Gang, take care of yourselves. Be well, I’ll talk to you later on. Bye.
