Mark Cushing Joins Dr. Andy Roark to review recent trends and policy battles in veterinary medicine. He discusses the veterinary labor shortage, telemedicine, nurse practitioners, lawsuit damages and CBD regulation. He also gives his predictions for the midterm 2022 elections and how they will impact veterinary medicine in the coming year.
Practice Owner Summit: https://unchartedvet.com/practice-owner-summit-2022/
Pet Nation: https://amzn.to/3yNT8gj
Animal Policy Group: https://animalpolicygroup.com/
Mark Cushing Website: https://www.marklcushing.com/
Dr. Andy Roark Exam Room Communication Tool Box Course: https://drandyroark.com/on-demand-staff-training/
Dr. Andy Roark Swag: drandyroark.com/shop
All Links: linktr.ee/DrAndyRoark
ABOUT OUR GUEST
Mark is the Founder and Managing Partner of the Animal Policy Group, LLC, based in Scottsdale, AZ, Portland, OR, and Los Angeles. APG’s clients represent a wide-range of pet health, animal welfare and veterinary educational interests. Mark focuses his practice on providing high-level strategic advice, government advocacy, regulatory and policy services to animal health and veterinary clients with needs at any level of government, and universities and industry groups throughout North America. Mark is a frequent speaker at veterinary medicine and other animal policy conferences. He is a former partner of major regional and national law firms and served as an adjunct professor of law at the LMU Duncan School of Law in Knoxville, Lewis & Clark Law School in Portland, and the University of Oregon School of Law. He is an Honors graduate with distinction from Stanford University and the Willamette University College of Law. Most recently, Mark is the author of Pet Nation, a book released by Penguin Random House that illustrates an inside look at the forces behind how our pets transformed American society and culture.
This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Welcome, everybody, to The Cone of Shame Veterinary Podcast. I am your host, Dr. Andy Roark. Guys, I’m here today with the one and only, Mark Cushing. If you haven’t heard Mark before, you’re in for a treat. He’s very opinionated. He has got his fingers in a lot of pies. He knows a lot about how our industry works. And I’m just thrilled to have him here. Gang, we talk about everything from the vet med labor shortage, to nurse practitioners and telemedicine, to noneconomic damages and lawsuits too. And we focus on this [inaudible 00:00:41] CBD oil and CBD regulations. Gang, it is today a sprawling, sprawling conversation. We even talk some politics, we talk midterm elections and inflation and what that means or could mean for vet medicine in the coming year. It’s a really fun one. Gang, I hope you’ll enjoy it. Let’s get into this episode.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter:
(Singing) This is your show. We’re glad you’re here. We want to help you in your veterinary career. Welcome to The Cone of Shame with Dr. Andy Roark.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Welcome to the podcast, Mark Cushing. Thanks for being here.
Great to join us as always, Andy. Hope you’re well.
Dr. Andy Roark:
I am. So I love having you here. For those who don’t know you, Mark Cushing is a lawyer. He is a founder and CEO of the Animal Policy Group. And he is the author of the book Pet Nation. I’ve had you on the podcast before. We’ve talked about the book. We’ve talked about a lot of things. You always come to my mind this time of year because I used to get to see you at the Banfield Industry Summit, which is a great event. But you are generally invited to share your perspective on the industry and where it’s going. And what are the hot topics in the coming year? And I love that, I love hearing you speak about that. You just always give me a ton of ideas.
And I just wanted to have you on the podcast today and kind of run … I think I’d like to sort of hear an overview because I didn’t get to hear you at Banfield this year. What are the hot topics you see coming down the pipes for the industry? And then one area that I know that you’re involved is in the legality of CBD. That was a topic that got really hot, and then it kind of seemed to cool down. And I’m sensing it’s warming back up and I’m seeing a lot more about it again. I wanted to talk to you about that. Does that sound okay?
Let’s go. I’ll jump in on the first.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, take it from there.
And Banfield punished the attendees by making them sit through breakfast to hear my overview. So I go about 180 miles an hour because I try to cover all the legislation the past year. We started out my group by looking at 25,000 bills and reduced it down to about 350. The point being, when you’re successful and financially, the industry as you know, 2020, 2021, now 2022 are each the greatest years financially than the year before ever, so that puts a bullseye on your back, and I kind of reminded the industry leaders that, that attracts attention. And it often attracts legislation of people wanting to help you, I.E, get a piece of your action, so to speak.
And what were some interesting trends this year? Industry wide, the conversation right now is dominated by the veterinary shortage and the vet tech shortage, period. And there has been reluctance, I think foolish on the part of some trade associations to acknowledge it because all you have to do is talk to a practicing veterinarian anywhere in the country, rural, suburban, urban, East, West, North, South, doesn’t matter. They’re in an acute shortage scenario. And the law of economics, as you know, Andy, means if you have a shortage of something, a shortage of supply of veterinarians, fewer people get care and the price of care goes up. Neither one of those are trends that people feel comfortable with.
I’m not trained enough to talk about the impact and the burnout on veterinary staffs, which is obvious. But we have this millennial and gen Z pet owner group, the largest cohorts of pet owners now in the country, they want to spend money on vet care, they want to treat their pets’ healthcare at the same scale that they take care of their own healthcare. And money really isn’t an issue, which is, quote, a great problem to have, but you’ve got to have enough caregivers to do that. And they’re frustrated. And the headwind we’re heading into will be people that were going to get a second dog, or a cat, or a second cat, or a third because they want playmates and they enjoy the first ones they have so much. But if you can’t get in to see a vet, I can see the conversation between a couple being, “Honey, why are we thinking about a second dog when we can’t get Sparky in to see our veterinarian for a month?” So that’s a tough issue, and it surfaces in different directions.
One is, and you know I’m an advocate for telemedicine. I wrote the first article for the industry back in 2015. I didn’t create telemedicine, I just watched what it’s done in human medicines. It’s legal in all 50 states and it’s now important. It’s a fundamental way people get care if they can’t get in to see a doc. And telemedicine is on the table now in a different context than just it’s convenient and I don’t want to leave my house, or I don’t want to go to a clinic. It’s I can’t get into a clinic. So the arguments against telemedicine become more and more theoretical and less and less real. Number one, number two, it’s opened the door for people to say, “Yeah, human medicine’s had PAs and nurse practitioners for 60 years.” Let me tell you what 60 years means. That means there’s grandparents, kids, and grandkids that have been PAs in this country. We have them all through the US. And again, we would have enormous medical deserts absent nurse practitioners and PAs.
So we’ve had 60 years to learn from it. Obviously, I’m a fan of that. Lincoln Memorial’s opened its first master’s program to create that. And that thinking’s changed. We find people saying, “We certainly shouldn’t fear competition from PAs. Good Lord, we don’t have enough vets as is.” And it would free veterinarians up to do more things, higher value things. So that conversation’s changed. You now see more states, they’re blue states, they’re mainly in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic, look at noneconomic damages and saying, “We see all this literature where veterinarians say, ‘We treat your pets as family,'” which is true. They have that. They have a unique role in our lives that’s more like kids, and that is like certainly a chair or a skateboard. So why don’t we get the damage awards to include emotional damages, loss of companionship, that human medicine gets? And that’s a tough issue.
I’m still a strong critic of that idea, and my clients are. Why? Because all that does is drive up the cost of vet care, and therefore reduces access. Why is that? Because we pay 750 bucks for liability insurance, vets do now, versus 200,000 that an OB/GYN pays. And if you think that number doesn’t show up in new technology, defensive medicine, and rising costs, which shrinks access, so it’s an interesting debate. But that’s got some tailwind behind it, and we’ll see more and more states want to push that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. And let me ask you about that because you’re actually the perfect person to ask this about. I think a lot about this, and whenever I hear noneconomic damages, I’ll be honest, I feel the muscles in my face tighten. You know what I mean? I feel the stress in my forehead come in because just to me, that seems catastrophic, I mean really. And I want you to talk me down here.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Give me some … Don’t say, “It is.” I wanted you to say, “No, Andy. It’s bad, but it’s not awful.” But it just seems to me, I go, “Look, we’re trying to do everything that we can to provide access,” but when people start suing for six, seven figures when something goes wrong with their pet, suddenly we go, “No, I’m not doing this without an ultrasound, or I’m not doing this without a CT scan.” And I don’t see how that doesn’t just rocket the cost of care multiple times above what it is now. Am I wrong? Are there shades of gray that I’m not seeing here?
You’re not wrong. The truth is, all lawsuits against doctors, the plaintiff’s lawyers that take those cases have them on contingent fees. You see the ads, the billboards in every highway in America. Doesn’t cost you anything. Mark Cushing, come see me, in a car accident, won’t cost you anything. It’s true. You don’t have an out of pocket cost. But they get a third of it. There aren’t lawsuits against veterinarians now with any scale or volume for a simple reason. Lawyers don’t get out of bed for one third of $2000.
Dr. Andy Roark:
You don’t spend two years pursuing a case that you might make 600 bucks. So when you change that, two things happen. The number of lawsuit, when people recover … Your Shih Tzu dies at age 12, and they claim that the doctor negligently performed surgery, when the gates are open on whatever a jury things would emotionally reward you or compensate you for that loss, two things happen. Lawsuits get filed. Plaintiff’s lawyers get organized. TV ads start appearing of the sort, they ask if you’re in a certain group, asbestos, you’re in a certain group for something else. Now it’s: Are you a pet [inaudible 00:09:56] a pet in America? Have you lost a pet in your life? Really emotionally compelling ads.
The second thing that happens that’s even more troublesome is the insurance underwriters, if one state does that, they step back and go, “Wait a second. Our job’s to manage risk here. The risk just went up by X amount,” so now across the country, they start raising premiums to get ready for it. And then you bake that in, if you’re a veterinarian and you’re cost of doing business increases by $50,000 in the year, you don’t think you find a way to try to recover that. And so the rich can afford it, but we’ve never had healthcare for pets, nor have we had pet ownership be one that’s dependent on income, period.
I did a study nationally in 2015. People that made less than $30,000 a year owned dogs at the same percentage level as people that made over $100,000. And that goes away in this scenario. So there’s nothing good about it, and you might say, “Well, it compensates Mrs. Brown that loved that dog, and she got a nice check for a million five.” Well, actually, she got a million because her lawyers got $500,000. But is that worth it as a social policy? That’s why on the human side, you can’t make a claim for your brother, your sister, your favorite aunt or uncle, your favorite grandparent, your best friend, your girlfriend. It’s limited to your spouse or a child. And so the argument tries to shoehorn pets into being a child. My view is, and I’ve said it publicly, I’ve appeared in front of legislatures and debates all the time, I say pets aren’t children. Pets are a different species. In fact, of course they’re a different species. They’re dog and cat or some other pet.
But they’re also, they have a different relationship. In many cases, they’re nicer than kids. I have five kids. And the point is, you can’t simply say they are kids. They’re not. They’re something different. They live a short life, sadly. We’d all love our favorite dog to live to 60. Not the case, obviously, you know as a doctor. So that analogy, and we’ve won for all 16 years I’ve been involved in the industry. But the waves are bigger coming at us right now, and I don’t think it’s going to go away. So that’s bed news, I’m sorry to start your program off with [inaudible 00:12:24]. But we’re winning. The point is when we make the case that I just said, people go, “Oh, okay. I get it. I’m okay [inaudible 00:12:33].”
Dr. Andy Roark:
That seems obvious to me is you go, “Boy, the impact of this on people’s ability to have pets and pay for them is just so monumental.” It would be so sad to have to make those adjustments.
Hey guys, I just want to jump in real fast and give all of my practice owner friends a heads up. The Practice Owner Summit is coming in December. It is an Uncharted veterinary conference. It is only for practice owners. It is a summit, which means plan for it to be very hands on. You’re going to meet with everyone, other practice owners, everyone there basically is going to be a practice owner. I expect we’ll have 75 practice owners coming together in Greenville, South Carolina December 8th through the 10th. This is a program that I am super happy to put on and run it with my team at Uncharted. It is unlike anything that you’ve seen before. If you want to work on your business, you want to talk with people who get it and who understand the stresses of being an owner, come on and check it out. I’ll put a link in the show notes. Guys, let’s get back into this episode.
Let me ask you one more thing before we go on. So I thought a lot about this, and we say to people, “Your pets are family, and we treat your fur babies,” and we talk like that, I like that language in a lot of ways because it’s always been about raising the human animal bond, and emphasizing people’s connections to pet, and recognizing and honoring that connection.
At the same time, Mark, as I listen to these things and we talk about noneconomic damages, and then also the inability to get pets in to the clinic, and I say, we say, “This is your fur baby, but I can’t see you today.” No shade at all for not being able to get people into the clinic. I am 100% one of those people who says, “If you have a capacity in what you can see in a day, and when you surpass it, you can’t just push your staff harder.” That’s not how this works, and so no shade on not being able to get people in. However, do we need as an industry to start adjusting the language that we use when we talk about pets? So how does that feel when I say it to you?
I have contractors all over my property right now, so I’m just waving them off saying I’m [inaudible 00:14:48]. I’m talking to this esteemed national veterinarian [inaudible 00:14:52]. So I’m a free speech guy. I’ve always believed strongly, not just as a lawyer, but as a citizen. So attempting to regulate language to me is a fool’s mission, Andy, even if it’s well-intentioned, you’ll never quite achieve it. And we’ve used those phrases about pets for 15, 20 years, and not had noneconomic damages come back to bite us. So I think we can manage our way through it at that level. What will change is that the plaintiff’s lawyers, who are busy with opioid lawsuits, following gun control lawsuits, following asbestos, following cigarette, following just fill in the blank, where the scale of reward is billion dollars, so you get a third of a billion dollars versus $100,000. You get a little more excited.
So when that groups turns their eyes, and I’ve waited for 16 years to see when that group shows up, their lobbying power is almost unbeatable, almost. That’ll be different, we’ll see, and language may have to change. But I think for now, we can continue to do it. And the nice thing is pet owners aren’t crying for those damages. That’s the other thing. Those cases always have people that have died horrible deaths, and they’re on the ads, and it’s super compelling. Well, people know pets live short lives. So it’s a different narrative to say, “My 13 year old retriever had to say goodbye.” Well, chances are in the next year, you would’ve had to. Does that sound callous from a lawyer? Sorry, but that’s sort of the reality of it.
Dr. Andy Roark:
No, I hear that. All that totally makes sense. No, this is insightful. I appreciate your insight. Let’s evolve this a little bit, and I want to swing over to CBD. This was a topic a couple years ago we heard a ton about, and CBD was everywhere, and the CBD stores were popping up. There were just new products really coming into the vet market. And then I felt like things kind of hit a stable point, sort of an equilibrium, and they sort of were normalized to some degree, and things sort of quieted down. And now I’m hearing a lot more about the legalities of CBD, sort of changes to access of CBD. Can you sort of start to lay that out for me? Why is this becoming an issue again?
Well, it’s becoming an issue again because so many states have legalized recreational marijuana. A majority have legalized medical marijuana. CBD’s not marijuana, but the point is the culture is much more comfortable with it, number one. Number two, you’ve seen people get comfortable using gummies and a whole host of just CBD products themselves, and particularly when it relates to stress. The argument, I don’t want to keep giving my dog gabapentin because we’re driving eight hours down to Florida for Easter or something. Is there something that’s less aggressive and maybe has less residual, potential residual issues? So there’s that, but you now have legislation, and now, surprise, California has jumped to the head of the pack. And the legal standing right now of CBD supplements in California is that there is no restriction, no restriction on a veterinarian recommending or selling it from their practice to a client.
And there’s uncertainty, Andy, you know this because you’ve podcast all over the country. There’s uncertainty all over the country by veterinarians. Can I even discuss CBD with my clients? Let me just take issues one at a time. The answer is we have a thing called the First Amendment. You can talk about space travel, you can try to tell your clients the world is flat. You can talk to your clients about anything you want. You can. I mean, the truth is you can talk about it. So there’s no thought police, speech police zooming in from a vet med board saying, “Did I hear you mention CBD? Let me have that license of yours and we’ll kindly excuse you,” number one.
Number two, the problem has been the FDA. And let me tell you what the FDA hasn’t done, and it’s what they haven’t done that’s frustrating. So Congress passed in 2018, the Farm Bill. It was signed by the president. That means the language of that bill is the law of the United States. And that law said the following, “If it’s hemp based and the THC, the psychoactive level, that high level of the CBD and hemp, is below .3, that is legal in America.” That’s legal right now. And so if a supplement fits that category, it’s legal. A veterinarian can recommend it. And in my view, they could sell it.
Now what the FDA’s done is say, “Well, we won’t pronounce on that. We won’t make a statement.” So you have one agency sitting there that everybody looks to, being silent. But they will say, “If you’re a supplement manufacturer and you make a therapeutic claim, if you claim that supplement’s going to do something good for a pet, or it’s going to change their bodily structure or function,” that’s the language they use, then we’ll shut you down because only we can approve a therapeutic product. So CBD manufacturers have gotten a lot smarter. And you just pay attention to their marketing, and they’re not making the claims that they might’ve made or want to make, the truth is. So it’s not helpful in my view, and I’ve told the FDA that. It’s not helpful for them to not just step up and say, “We know it’s the law, if you fit this category, hemp based below .3 THC, you’re okay by us.” You can say we’re not going to regulate you, but we’re not going to punish anybody for using you.
So that’s the uncertainty out there, but it’s going to go the way that human marijuana use went. State after state, including SEC states, which tend to be very conservative, other than when they’re talking about SEC football, but states increasingly are saying, “Yes, marijuana, we can live with it within our culture.” And you’re going to see that trend. And so I think what’s going to happen is more and more states are going to say, “Veterinarians, officially, you can do this.” Right now, veterinarians are like, “I don’t know. I want someone to tell me for sure my license isn’t at risk.” And I’m involved, it probably won’t surprise you, but I’m involved with trying to get some of those reforms initiated in states that clarify it. The ones that have are Nevada and California right now on the veterinary side. And those numbers need to increase. And I think once more states do that, people will get comfortable.
Dr. Andy Roark:
What do you think as far as pace of this change? I mean, so Nevada, California, is this in five years, the majority of the states? I mean, I know we’re just sort of forecasting here. But is it a couple years, or is it much longer term than that? What are you thinking as far as timeline?
I think a five year window’s a good way to look at it. And I’ll be disappointed if we’re not at the 10 to 15 states in five years, crazy successful, 20 states. I think in 10 years, over half the states will. And again, I think if you tie it to a veterinary client patient relationship, so you’re saying, and that’s what I favor, so you’re saying, “Yes, you can recommend and dispense, and you can administer in your practice if you need to, a product that fits that legal definition if you have a VCPR with the client.” Then I think we built in a whole set of standards and care that veterinarians have to bring to bear, rather than just sort of casually recommending to a friend, “Yeah, why don’t you try this?” So I think if we have safeguards, people get comfortable. And the key to me, Andy, is that the state VMAs not come out against it, and let … And you never know until you’re in the battle whether they’re going to come out.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. That makes sense. So getting my head around this, so when we talk about manufacturers that are doing more than .3 THC, things like that, are those not available for purchase in other states? Or owners are just, I’m assuming, ordering them online, it’s just they’re not coming through veterinary clinics. Help me understand that.
Yeah. They’re not coming through veterinary channels, and it’s probably CBD for humans. And to me, that’s dangerous. I mean, I’m a baby boomer. I’ve been exposed to cannabis in CBD in my life. That will shock people. I did live in America in the 60s and 70s and 80s and 90s and now. Point being, a lot of people, I mean, sadly, some people are just taking marijuana in some manner, feeding it to a pet, which is very dangerous. And so that’s the mistake being made there. But people are saying, “Hell, it makes me feel good, and I weigh X number of pounds, so my retriever weighs 65 pounds. I’ll cut it in third, or I’ll cut it in half, or a quarter,” and not a good plan. But there is that going on, no question.
So I think what you want to have happen is let the … And I work with a company going through FDA clinical trials right now, so once you start to have standards that people understand, I’m surprised how many veterinarians don’t know about the Farm Bill, don’t know the hemp based less than .3 THC means something. They’re like, “Oh, what’s that? I never heard about that?” Well, that’s the law. And so we kind of have to get the word out, and I’m hoping that med boards and vet medical associations are comfortable saying, “Yes, that’s okay.” But I think they’re being told by lawyers, “You’ve got to be cautious here. Wait and see what the FDA does.” And I always say to people, “We can wait.” But the truth is, federal law already says the following, which you’ve heard me say. Don’t be afraid to adhere to federal law. And the FDA’s angle is, don’t make a special therapeutic claim about it, but you can get around that. And so smart companies use language that, that’s not claiming it’s going to heal this or cure that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Got you. Well, let me wrap this up. I want to ask you one of your future facing questions because I’m always interested in your perspective. We’re going into midterm elections. We’ve got signs of continued inflation and prices continue to stay high, even with adjustments to interest rates from the Fed, things like that. Where do you see vet medicine in the next 12, 16, 24 months? Are there forces you’re expecting to be impacting us that are not yet apparent?
I think that the Republicans will take the House back. Whatever your party is, the beauty of that is when we have dual governments, Republicans have this, Republicans have that, but both parties have some power. The pace of federal spending always slows down, and inflation is driven mainly by just massive federal spending that puts money into the market, into the world. And everybody says, “Well, that sounds good.” But then it has the effect we’re now experiencing. I think that’ll slow down fears about a recession. What’s changed in the narrative is inflation, inflation, inflation, oh, my God. Now we’re getting near. Oh, you read the Wall Street Journal today, everyone’s saying, “Recession likely.”
I think that threat will abate. That will cause people will calm down about: Do I have to start making adjustments in my lifestyle right now? Because there’s still jobs available, so if somebody wants a job, they can get a job. But I think you’re going to see that the recession threat and the scale of inflation, if just that one thing happens, Republicans take the house because that means that the Democrats can’t simply push through a spending plan that Republicans can’t stop, so I’m being very political in saying that. There’s things about Republicans taking control that I don’t necessarily like, but that’s one positive.
So the threat to veterinary medicine is there of a recession, but it’ll be on the edges of it. I do not see people saying, “I’m not going to feed my dog. I’m not going to feed my cat. I’m going to drive my dog to the shelter.” You know why people are giving pets back to shelters now? Because they can’t get veterinary care. That threat is independent of any national election. That’s a professional saying, “We have to open up avenues for care or remove barriers to care so people can get care other than going to a clinic,” because clinics have said, “There’s no room at the inn. Sorry, there’s just no room at this hotel. You can’t stay here.” So I’m less concerned for this industry than others about how a full on recession plays out. It’ll slow some things down for sure, but look at what’s happened.
Market Watch shows us every week that vet spending’s up from a year ago and up from the year before that, so that’s my one political ad for this interview, is that I like divided governments. You know why? Because it forces the extremes of both party, which drive most people nuts, myself included. It forces extremes to have conversations because you just can’t yell at each other all day if in fact nothing can happen if you don’t sit down because one side has to get buy in, and the other side has to get buy in, so that’s my hope. If not, I will tell you, it’ll be pretty interesting what’s going to happen. Tighten your seat belt and watch out.
Dr. Andy Roark:
You heard it from the oracle. Yeah, there you go.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Mark Cushing, you are the author of Pet Nation. I’ll put a link to the book in the show notes for those who’ve not checked it out. There’s a podcast you and I have done in the past about it. It’s a very, very interesting read. I really enjoyed it. Where can people follow you? Where can they read more of your writing and your thoughts?
Well, they can go to, I think it’s markcushing.com or marklcushing.com. I can’t remember if I have my dad’s middle name, Lewis. But animalpolicygroup.com for our business. And then Pet Nation, you can get every way possible. And if you like the sound of my voice, for some reason, you can get the audio version. And as you’re walking on the beaches in Carolina, you can hear what I have to say.
Dr. Andy Roark:
It’s like I’m walking on the beach with Mark Cushing, and it doesn’t get better than that.
How could you top that? I agree. So Andy, great seeing you. Great questions, as always. You’re ahead of the game, and you just pull the rest of us along, so thanks a lot.
Dr. Andy Roark:
You’re very kind. Guys, take care of yourselves. And that is our show, guys. That’s what I got. I hope you enjoyed it. I hope you’ve enjoyed hearing thoughts and ponderings of Mark Cushing. As I may have mentioned before, Mark is the founder and CEO of Animal Policy Group. His opinions are his own, although I do very much enjoy hearing where his head is and hearing him talk and predict the future. So anyway, I hope you guys having him on here. Check out his book if you get a chance. Yeah, and that’s it from me, gang. Take care of yourselves. Be well. See you next week. Bye.