Dr. Sarah Boston returns to the Cone of Shame podcast, this time to discuss her career journey, which includes major pivots from academia to comedy. Between slaying dragons, climbing ladders, and dealing with expectations, Dr. Sarah Boston and Dr. Andy Roark provide great insight into reinventing yourself.
You can also listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, Soundcloud, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts!
LINKS
Dr. Sarah Boston & Comedicine Podcast: https://www.drsarahboston.com/
Lucky Dog: https://www.amazon.com/Lucky-Dog-Being-Veterinarian-Saved/dp/1770893512
Uncharted Roadshow in Atlanta: https://unchartedvet.com/product/on-the-road-atl/
Leadership Essentials Certificate: https://unchartedvet.com/uvc-april-2024/
Charming the Angry Client Course: https://drandyroark.com/charming-the-angry-client/
Dr. Andy Roark Swag: https://drandyroark.com/store/
ABOUT OUR GUEST
Dr. Sarah Boston is a veterinary surgical oncologist who is an ACVS board certified small animal surgeon and an ACVS Founding Fellow of both Surgical Oncology and Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery. She practises with VCA Canada in the Toronto area. Up until recently, she has spent most of her career in academia as a tenured faculty member at both the University of Guelph and the University of Florida. Dr Boston is also a best-selling author of the book, Lucky Dog: How Being a Veterinarian Saved my Life and one of the creators of The Cageliner, a satirical online newspaper for veterinary professionals that she is currently woefully neglecting. She is also a stand up comedian and in spring 2023, she graduated from the Humber College Comedy Performance and Writing Program. She is the host of the podcast Comedicine, where she interview healthcare professionals who are also comedians. She is a nerd. She believes that we all need to laugh more.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Andy Roark: [00:00:00] Welcome everybody to the Cone of Shame veterinary podcast. I am your host, Dr. Andy Roark. I am back on with one of my favorite people in the world, Dr. Sarah Boston. Dr. Sarah Boston is a surgical oncologist. She has been a faculty member at more than one college of vet medicine. She is Lecture all over the world and she’s been to comedy school. She does stand up comedy I recently saw her at VMX doing the talent show where she has lectured as a surgical oncologist many times and I have watched her and she was there not lecturing doing talent show doing stand up comedy And so I talked to her about self identity I think it’s fascinating to watch someone who has the accolades that Sarah does just doing things that aren’t vet medicine at all.
And I’ve been thinking a lot about what ties us into our chair, what makes us stay where we are, what defines us in a way that we don’t feel like we can go do something else [00:01:00] because we’re too invested in this image of who we are. And that’s what we talk about today. And man is a really good conversation.
I took a lot of stuff away from this. It’s just anyway, I’m going to stop talking about now. Check out this conversation with Sarah Boston. I hope you’ll enjoy it. I think it’s really fun. I think she’s amazing Anyway, let’s get into this episode
Kelsey Beth Carpenter: (singing) This is your show. We’re glad you’re here. We want to help you in your veterinary career. Welcome to the Cone of Shame with Dr. Andy Roark.
Dr. Andy Roark: Welcome to the podcast. Dr. Sarah Boston. How are you?
Dr. Sarah Boston: I’m great. It’s great to be here.
Dr. Andy Roark: It’s great to have you. You were my first guest.
Dr. Sarah Boston: I know!
Dr. Andy Roark: You are, you were the first. I was like, I have this crazy idea. And I was like, who is not going to care if I never publish this? And I was like, Sarah Boston didn’t care. Like, she doesn’t care. And so I, [00:02:00] invited you to come and talk.
And I was also like, who do I have a lot to talk about with? And it was you. And so, You’re, you have been and always. You still don’t care that
Dr. Sarah Boston: And I still have a lot to talk about with you.
Dr. Andy Roark: Exactly! And so, here we are. For you, you have been and always will be the first podcast guest that I ever had. Yeah. I think I called the episode, Are We Bad People?
And I think that’s how it all No, it didn’t. It was about, it was not, that was a later one that you did. You’ve been on the podcast many times. Okay, for those who do not know you, you are a veterinary surgical oncologist by training. You have been a faculty member at at more than one veterinary school.
You are a stand up comedian. You you are an author. You have a book called Lucky Dog, which we’ll talk about a little bit in a minute. And you have just generally done a lot of things at very high levels. And so I was sitting back and kind [00:03:00] of reflecting here towards the early part of the year.
And I was thinking about sort of, I don’t know, I was thinking about my career. I was sort of thinking about where we go and how life changes. And it’s funny, my, my oldest daughter is 16 now. And so she’s driving around and I was thinking about how I identify as I still say I have little girls. And I do not have little girls.
I have six, I have teenage girls, which are very different, but I still say it like if, like, when I, if I don’t catch myself, then that’s what I, that’s what I think. That’s still how I identify. And, you know, I’ve just been, I’ve been thinking about life and how life kind of comes in phases. And so you, I look at you and you’ve done all of these different things. Your book, Lucky Dog, is it’s a great book. It is it’s, there’s not a lot of people who can write funny books about cancer. But, you wrote a, yeah, you wrote about, you, you wrote about practice and your time with thyroid cancer. And and sort of put that out [00:04:00] into the world, and it was, really good.
And then And then your surgical skill is great. And then you, were a college professor for, I mean, a vet school professor. And then I recently saw you at VMX in Orlando and you were in the talent show doing stand up comedy in front of like thousands of people. And you’ve been to clown college and you’ve just, you’ve done so many things. I was I was talking to this veterinarian recently and she was talking about her job and she was like, you know, I worked three days a week, which I know is not a lot I work only three days a week is the way she put it and it’s I get paid well And you know, I work with a great team and I’m just bored.
I’m just bored. Like, she’s like, I don’t like practice. I just, I don’t want to do this. And I was like, well, why don’t I get it? And she felt really guilty because she was like, I should be really happy, but I’m not. And I said, well, but, you’re not, you know, why do you feel [00:05:00] like you have to keep doing this thing the same way that you’ve always done it and she was well, it’s just kind of who I am, you know, like, I don’t know what else to do or what else to be and I’ve really been kind of rolling that around in my head as we get this, sort of self image, this self identity of kind of who we are and I’ve, I think I’ve Wrestle with it a lot in my career of what who am I and what am I trying to be and anyway?
I wanted to ask you your thoughts about that as someone who has sort of reinvented herself kind of over and over again
Dr. Sarah Boston: Yeah, I
Dr. Andy Roark: you ever yeah?
Dr. Sarah Boston: I strongly associate with what she’s saying though, because I think a lot of veterinarians feel that way. Like, I’m a surgeon, I’m a veterinarian, I’m a clinical veterinarian. And this inability to see being something else. And I actually think the further you go into specialization, like the harder that is to see.
So like, I’m still practicing as a surgical oncologist. And I love a lot of aspects of that. But I [00:06:00] definitely sort of think, Oh, like, should I do something different? Or, you know, what would that be like? But ultimately. I think I’m very pigeonholed and I think a lot of veterinarians are very pigeonholed and it’s great and it’s also not great at the same time.
Like it’s great to have that identity and something that anchors you and you can feel connected to, but I think it also, it’s restrictive and I’ve always had that. Like, cause I’m the person who wanted to be a vet when I was six and I’m from an artistic family. I’m from a family of creative people.
And that was not for me, like it, it just was like, no, she’s going to be a vet, like she’s going to do science. That’s what, she does, you know? And, again, it was great because I had a path and I had a focus and I was like, I got into vet school pretty quickly. Didn’t get a residency that quickly.
That’s okay. That’s fine. But like I was just on a path, you know, and then I think you can stay on that path and it was like, oh, now I’m boarded surgeon. Now I’m doing a fellowship. Now I’m faculty. Now I’m going to get tenure. [00:07:00]Then I changed universities. Then I had to do tenure again. Don’t recommend that, but it’s like, it all just, now you’re an assistant professor, now you’re associate professor.
I didn’t stay on long enough to be a full professor, but that was the. I was sort of on that track. I think it’s hard to get off that track. That was probably the biggest, as far as a transition of how I see myself or identify the change from being an academic, because I loved a lot of things about academia, to being like in private practice.
That, I think that has like, that’s a bit of an identity switch. Even if other people don’t see that, I see that, you know, I feel that. So. So I totally, I understand why veterinarians feel that way. I mean, I think the fact of the matter is though you can reinvent yourself, but I think there’s always a part of you that sort of hangs on to something.
So maybe that veterinarian is going to become a locum and explore other things or, you know, there’s ways you can do that. I still work 60 percent is what I work. And I, actually, I take issue with people saying I just worked three days a week or just two days a week, because I think. [00:08:00] Have I told you this?
I don’t want to talk about this, but like, it’s enough. Like,
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.
Dr. Sarah Boston: it’s hard. It’s not about how many hours you’re working. It’s my, I’m calling it my Peloton theory. It’s like, well, how fast were you pedaling and what was the resistance? It’s not about like, oh, I was on the bike for 20 minutes. No, like if you work 24 hours and you were like running around like a headless chicken all day, and there was a lot of emotional drama that always happens in a vet clinic and it was physically hard and it was, you had a lot of difficult cases.
It was like. I’m just saying, that’s enough. That’s enough work. And then, because if you do that 40 or 50 hours a week. Like I’ve done it. There’s nothing left. There’s nothing left at the end of that. But you don’t have energy for your partner. You’re, I don’t have kids. I wouldn’t have energy for them. I wouldn’t have any like for your dog, for your hobbies, like to do comedy, to do writing, to do anything, exercise, eat properly, all those things, like even basic stuff, I think a lot of veterinarians, they don’t [00:09:00] even have time to like eat a healthy meal, get eight hours of sleep.
So, yeah, I don’t know. I think full time for veterinarians should not be full time. Like, I think it’s just different and I think we need to look at it differently.
Dr. Andy Roark: No, like
Dr. Sarah Boston: has nothing to do with what you asked me, but I just, I’ve been thinking about that a lot because I just, but I think it is a bit of identity because most veterinarians I know who don’t work full time, in quotations, they apologize.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I’m not or they wrestle with like I’m not a real vet And it’s like, oh, I know I’m not a real vet because I only work two days a week. I’m like, no, okay.
Dr. Sarah Boston: Oh, yeah. What else are you doing? Right? Like, and maybe you’re just. I’m just being an amazing parent. Awesome. important. Like that’s so important. And that, you know, I’ve seen colleagues who have kids and the time will slip away from them. Right. I mean, you, your little girls are, they’re not little girls.
And so, yeah, take some time out and do something. But, and so for me, it wasn’t children, but it was comedy. Just writing the book, writing a funny book about cancer, realizing that I love that part of myself. [00:10:00] And just wanting to explore it, but I wouldn’t like, I think people, what people think of me, if they know me or don’t know me probably more is like, Oh, that’s just so easy to do.
It’s not right. Because you think about, well, what? Okay. Probably the answer is nothing or it’s positive, but you will think, what do people think about me? Like I was an academic surgical oncologist doing all the things right. Doing all the papers and, all that. And now I’m like, I’m in a comedy club.
Dr. Andy Roark: You literally went to clown school.
Dr. Sarah Boston: I literally went to Humber college for, yeah, I literally went to comedy school for two years.
Don’t regret that at all. It was great. I actually just had this experience, this like a retired professor who I used to work with at Guelph. She really wanted to come see me do comedy. And that’s awesome. Right. I don’t, you know, but she’s older and I, she was emailing me a lot. She was like, Oh, I really want to come see you.
And so there’s a show that was like kind of nearby. It was like, I live in Guelph, which is outside Toronto. And this was like about 20 minutes away. She was really wanting to come see me. And so I was going to say like, [00:11:00] Oh, like it may not be for you.
Because it was like a real, like, stand up comedy show and there was a burlesque act.
There was a lot going on. I’ll just say a lot going on. It wasn’t like Sarah doing stand up at VMX, which is going to be clean corporate comedy, or Sarah doing stand up at a veterinary conference, which honestly isn’t always clean, but I try to keep in mind it’s corporate and I have to like, be ca This was me just actually working out a pretty dark set.
But I was like, should I change that for her? And I was like, well, no, that doesn’t make sense. So, and I almost said, don’t maybe, Oh, maybe you won’t like it. But then I thought, well, I shouldn’t discourage people from going out. What I want, who, what, I don’t know what she likes. So she came out, the host talked about, kind of did a monologue about addiction and a story about addiction.
Then someone came out and was like talking. I don’t know if I can say this on your podcast even, but. Oh, well, you’ll just edit it out, I guess, if I can’t, but she was talking about that she’s polyamorous and pansexual and talking about, uh, oh, dildos, I’ll just say that she [00:12:00] was talking about that. That was her act.
And then I did my fairly dark act. And then the next act was someone doing burlesque with a lightsaber to Star Wars. Like, Oh, you know, and then I was like sitting above her and her husband and a student that came with her. And like, I saw her husband get up and I was like, Oh, maybe he’s going to the bathroom.
And then it was like clockwork, like two minutes later. The student left and then two minutes later, she left and she had emailed me probably 12 times leading up to the show about getting tickets and she’s going to see me and all this. I have heard nothing. It’s been two
Dr. Andy Roark: was it. Like, like, she got up and left during the show and that was the last communication that you had.
Dr. Sarah Boston: And I’m like, Oh, I don’t even know what she thinks. Right. And I was like, well, I don’t know what to do with that. You know? I’m like, well, it’s stand up. Like, I don’t know. Anyway, that’s just a warning to anyone who comes and sees me like, it may not be your cup of tea. It’s different. It’s not like, it has nothing to do with veterinary medicine.
And, people, you know, this, like people do the comedy, like it’s totally a different world. [00:13:00] And sometimes I don’t like it. And sometimes I like it. Sometimes I’m like, what am I doing here? You know, like I am like, not, I’m in a comedy club and like the stuff people are talking about, sometimes I’m embarrassed to be on the same show, but I’m just like, it’s just is what it is.
So yeah, I. Anyway, that’s it was kind of like it did kind of make me think I wonder what she like thinks. And like what is she saying to people like Sarah Boston has completely lost her mind, you know Because it’s so has nothing to do with My life as a veterinarian, but I like that. Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: I guess I think that gets to the point of what we’re talking about, right? Like so so this goes another way, too. There’s a multiverse, you know setting where Sarah Boston doesn’t do comedy , because you’re doctor Sarah Boston boarded veterinary oncologist you know, former faculty member, blah, blah, blah.
And, I can’t be associated with this, or I can’t go and do these things because I don’t want [00:14:00] people to see me that way. And I think a lot of people that carry that fear, I think the reason I wanted to talk to you specifically about this topic today is because you’re the person who is like, I’m going to go up there after the woman with her sexual history on display and you know and before the burlesque show And I’m gonna talk about you know stuff that I’m kind of working through that doesn’t really have anything to do with my clinical practice And so I but I think a lot of people would not make that call or They would be really conflicted about it And so that actually strikes at the heart of kind of what I wanted to talk to you about So this is exactly my point.
It’s like usually people would come to me and they would say I am thinking about I’m thinking about doing stand up comedy, but I’m worried that my clients will see it and I won’t be able to do this. And I would say something to them like, well, what’s the worst thing that could happen? Like, it’s what happened to you, is that they would actually get up and leave.
Dr. Sarah Boston: Someone that you respect, like a well respected specialist who probably [00:15:00] everyone here knows gets up and leaves. Yeah. And never communicates with you again. Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: It really is kind of about picking your poison, isn’t it, though? Like, if that’s the cost of doing the thing that you really want to do, really, you’ve only got two options. You could either, I mean, I don’t know, maybe you could have been more heavy handed about, look, really, do not come to this.
But, I don’t know. I agree with you, too. It’s, at some, you know, I think about that when I see stand up comics on Netflix, and they’re talking about stuff where I’m like, Oh, I wonder what their parents think when they see that. And again, that’s,
Dr. Sarah Boston: This was like exactly like that. So yeah, it was like a parent who wasn’t. Didn’t like it and left and never spoke to you again. You know, yeah, no, I, it’s weird because I, but I, do think first of all, pretty much everyone I tell that I do comedy, like they start laughing.
That’s a common thing. They’re like, really? Like at VMX, I’m like, Oh yeah, I’m in the talent show. You know, cause most [00:16:00] people saw me at VMX and were like, Oh, you’re speaking here. And I was like, no, I’m doing comedy and that was kind of weird for me. Like, honestly, it felt a bit weird. Cause I’ve only ever been to VMX as a speaker.
Because I’m not a primary care veterinarian, so I don’t, go to that conference as an attendee. I’ve gone as a speaker and then I went and I was like in a talent show and it did mess with my head. I will be honest. Like, it wasn’t like I was like, Oh, I feel like totally awesome here about this.
Like it, it, kind of was like, I was like, Oh, but then I, just was like, well, I’m here, like, I just, I’m going to go for it. And it went great. Like I, I came in second. And it was a. Such a fun night. And by the way, like if you’re a comedian coming in second is like, it’s like first.
Dr. Andy Roark: it. Yeah, that’s
Dr. Sarah Boston: It’s the same. I mean, the woman who won was like absolutely amazing singer, but the people I met in the talent show were incredible.
Like shout out to any of them. If they’re listening, they’re amazing. Mostly women, but they had [00:17:00] amazing stories. They were, I was so happy to just be with them and meet them. and so I had so much fun. So. Yeah, so then you just kind of go, well, I would have never had that experience, right? Like if I had sort of got stuck in myself and been like, no, I just, I speak at conferences and I’m a surgical oncologist and I’m there to teach people things.
And I was like, no, I’m there to spit some jokes.
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Now, I am so thrilled to be launching the Leadership Essentials Certificate with Uncharted and Vetfolio. Guys, these are the seven courses that I believe, really believe anyone who’s leading other people in vet medicine should have. This is vision and value setting. This is basic [00:18:00] strategic planning. It is understanding different communication styles, and I have my friend, Stephanie Goss, uh, helping teach that session is, uh, getting the team to buy in to new ideas and initiatives.
It is how to coach and give. feedback. It is how to set priorities. It is how to delegate effectively. It is how to do time management. It is the talks and the stories that I am probably most well known for giving. My red dot talk is in here. My GPA talk is in here. Everything about the north stars, everything that I Layout where I’m like, this is just so essential to managing people.
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It is huge for our team leads. We take people who are CSRs, we take people who are technicians, and we make [00:19:00]them lead techs or lead CSRs, and we give them zero leadership or management training. There’s no excuse for that anymore. This is, this is on demand whenever you want. It’s broken up. It’s eight hours.
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I’m so proud of it. I’m so glad to be partnering with nabc on it Anyway, guys, i’ll put links in the show note. I hope you’ll have a look. Let’s get back into this episode
Like, let’s think about this for a second. You literally went to a veterinary conference, which is like the biggest vet conference in the world, and you have lectured there. I have seen you lecture there. I’ve sat in your lectures and taken notes as you lecture there.
And then [00:20:00] you came back and literally just did stand up, and you had to know that people who were there were anticipating that you would be teaching surgical oncology, and then you weren’t. Talk to me a little bit. I think what I want to get into this is, at some point, Sarah Boston, you clearly had a decoupling of your veterinary identity and then what you wanted to be going, forward, or you just decided I’m going to have this duality, but at some point you let go of, I am Sarah Boston, the surgical oncologist that people know, you know, who is, it’s, I don’t know, has done all these things, and I’m going to have a different personality.
I’m gonna have a different identity that’s going to be mine. And I think what I would really like to try to tease out of you today is, what does that look like, Sarah? is that a separate sort of is that a second identity that you sort of feel like you have? Or do you feel like you had to morph into this sort of new thing of, yes, I do [00:21:00] practice, you know, 60 percent of the time, but I’m also really passionate about these other things and that’s kind of the complex person that I am and I think I’m really interested in when did you let go of I am ladder climber, Sarah Boston, who went to vet school and then practice and then did a residency and then joined academia so I could teach and educate and lecture and then I stepped off the ladder.
And went back to comedy school. Like, how did you, pry your fingers off and allow yourself to move to the next place? Because I think a lot of people are metaphorically in the faculty seat, holding on tight, going, this is the highest pinnacle I can climb to. And the idea of getting off this ladder now is just seems like nonsense.
Dr. Sarah Boston: Well, it is nonsense to give up tenure twice. Just ask my mom. It’s absolute nonsense. Why would anyone do that? I don’t [00:22:00] know. I think I will always be a bit of a ladder climber. Like I, I don’t know if I love that about myself or not, but like, I’m on a, just on a different ladder now and I don’t even know what it looks like.
Like I, I don’t, do comedy to be mediocre at comedy. Like I wish I could be that person who’s like, Oh, I don’t really care where it goes, that’s just not me. I care. I want to be good. Like I want this to be part of what I do that may or may not happen. And I think one thing I struggle with is the great.
People at comedy, they do it full time. It’s not, it’s hard. It is work. Like it doesn’t look like it. People think Robin Williams just got up there and was funny. He went to Juilliard. He worked. Jerry Seinfeld worked. Like the great comedians, like that was their full time job and they focused and they worked, which I can do, but I’m not doing that right now.
So I think that’s actually more of my struggle is like, now I feel like I’m on two little ladders.
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh,
Dr. Sarah Boston: There’s a, definitely a duality for me. Like it is a duality, but now I’m, and I think though, I mean, I think about people who are parents who. Our veterinarians and probably [00:23:00] more women than, like, I don’t want to offend any men, but, or maybe I don’t know, but more, it’s a more of a, historically more of a gender based struggle, I’ll just say, maybe that’s changing, but there’s a lot of women have told me through the years that they don’t feel like they’re succeeding at home and they don’t feel like they’re succeeding at work because they’re trying to do You’re trying to do two jobs, like being a parent is a job.
It’s a kind of a full time job. It’s more than a full time job, right? And I mean, I don’t know that. It’s just what I observe. So you’re trying to be the best parent and I guess that isn’t gendered, but you’re also trying to be the best veterinarian. And you probably can’t actually, like you, you probably can’t.
You can be really good sometimes and other times, but like sometimes your kid’s sick and you need to leave early. And That’s not great, but that is just the world we live in. Right. And you just have to be like, well, today I’m not the best veterinarian. I’m the best I could be. I have to go. So, yeah, I think that, anyway, I think for me, there will always be a duality.
I’m not letting go of being a veterinarian. I don’t know if I [00:24:00] could, to be honest, I don’t think I want to, I mean, I guess I could, if I wanted to, I don’t think I want to. And I had some ups and downs during the pandemic where I was like, I. Don’t like this.
I don’t know if I want to keep doing this. And that was sort of like just different circumstances.
I was in I’m at a really nice hospital right now. I like the people I work with. The main reason I decided to sign there, cause I was locuming in clown school was literally cause I liked the people there.
Dr. Andy Roark: yeah,
Dr. Sarah Boston: it. It was like, I was like, these are nice people. I like everyone in this hospital. I’m going to go work there.
That was the whole, that was my decision making, which I think is actually good because other
times I’ve
Dr. Andy Roark: think that’s great.
Dr. Sarah Boston: yeah, I think that will sustain you more than, I don’t know, a fancy, whatever, like that’s at the hospital, so maybe I’ve learned something, but anyway, yeah, to answer your question, I think it’s more of a duality, but now I think.
I still want to be really good at comedy and I still really want to be, you know, doing the best [00:25:00] job I can for my patients and my clients. And as a surgical oncologist and still like, you know, I always joke about like, if I’m just language languishing and obscurity now, because I’m not like as active doing research and mentorship and stuff like that.
Maybe I am, I don’t know, but that is a letting go for sure. You know,
Dr. Andy Roark: So there’s two things I heard you say that I want to kind of go back to so the first one is let me put forward a Theory about you. I think this idea that you said you talked about I’m climbing a different ladder That idea that I’m not I am moving upward and when you step off of, because you went from being in the faculty basically to really going into comedy, right?
Didn’t that happen around the same time if I remember sort of our conversations and relationship?
Dr. Sarah Boston: not so seriously. And then there was the pandemic, so it’s a bit mushy, but I kind of, and I didn’t. I, it wasn’t conscious, like they kind of happened simultaneously, but not consciously. It wasn’t like, Oh, I’m leaving faculty and now I’m [00:26:00] doing comedy. It was like, I left, I came back to the Toronto area.
It was easier to do comedy in this area and I pursued it. So it wasn’t like, I think if I’d been faculty somewhere where there was comedy, it would have just happened there too. And in some ways I wish it had, cause I would really love to teach comedy to veterinary students. Like I, I think that would be amazing.
Dr. Andy Roark: I have always seen myself as a dragon slayer, meaning I’m not happy unless I have a sword in my hand chasing a dragon down, like I am going to go and slay this dragon. And I don’t care what dragon it is all that much, I tend to pick eclectic dragons to chase down. But like, as long as I’ve got a sword in my hand chasing a dragon, I’m happy.
When you talked about I’m climbing a different ladder now. To me that kind of resonated and sort of said, I, kind of feel like Sarah’s sort of in that same boat. For me, I’ve been able to change what I do in my career because it has never been a, Ooh, do I really want to leave this behind? It’s more of a shiny object over there that I feel like I have to [00:27:00] run after.
Is
Dr. Sarah Boston: Yeah,
Dr. Andy Roark: would you say that sort of sums up
Dr. Sarah Boston: Yeah, I definitely feel that I think the Dragon Slayer, like that analogy, maybe better than a ladder because the ladder almost has this like negative connotation. It’s just like, Oh, I want to do that. And I think something I really valued and loved about academia was it changed all the time, right?
Like when we come on clinics, when we come at a conference lecturing, when we come doing research, I’m mentoring, like, so, and I, you know, I don’t know if I got bored. Like, you know, you talk about that clinician you talked to who said, I’m bored. I’m like,
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah,
Dr. Sarah Boston: yeah, I think I was a bit bored too being in private practice.
And every week is the same, like every Monday you do this, every Tuesday you do this. So now like I’ve got sort of 60 percent that, but then I’m, doing other things during the rest of the time. And it’s, it is actually like, I’m just trying to work it out. It is challenging to balance it all. Like, doing standup in a club at night, it’s late, I’m old.
And then I have to work the next day. I’m like. to figure that out, how that’s all going to work [00:28:00] is challenging, but it’s not more challenging than what anyone else is doing. Right.
Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I can’t believe you do that. I’m, you know,
Dr. Sarah Boston: Oh
Dr. Andy Roark: night and I’m like, ooooh, I don’t know. Let’s, can I just let you, can we just, can it be a game time decision? Do I have to commit?
Dr. Sarah Boston: I’ll probably be in bed then.
Dr. Andy Roark: Cause I’m gonna totally bail and I just want to say that I’m not gonna do it, but.
But, if I have insomnia then I’ll come, but that’s it. All right. the other thing I want to talk to you a little bit about, which I think is interesting is, so here you are and you sort of pushed in and you’re doing comedy, you’re doing this other thing. You’re sort of chasing this other dragon.
And just in our conversation, you mentioned your mentor who got up and left. Doesn’t talk to you. And. You mentioned your mom who was like, what are you doing? And so clearly important people in your life have pushed back a little bit maybe about some of the sort of recreation of [00:29:00] yourself. do you feel that way?
Does that bother you in a meaningful way? Or were you just like, I don’t care. Like, how do you get your head around that?
Dr. Sarah Boston: I would say the things that, I mean, the, thing that happened with my previous faculty member mentor I’ve been a bit embarrassed about it, but I also find it hilarious. And I
Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, it is hilarious.
Dr. Sarah Boston: One way that comedy has been a gift for me, and I had felt this shift, like after going to comedy school for two years, like there’s things that would have, really upset or annoyed me.
And now I just find it hilarious. Like things like that is hilarious. I’m sorry.
embarrassing. it’s, just hilarious. So like, yes, to feel a bit cringy, but even the cringy things like, so. I do, I really value that about comedy because I think it, it helps me as a clinician. It helps me in my life.
Like I can just look at things that are absurd and I can just, things that used to upset me and now I just look at it and I’m like, that’s absurd. And actually that’s hilarious. Like let me write that down. So that is a positive. I think, I mean the most, I guess the most important person in my life is as far as [00:30:00] their opinion is my husband.
He’s just like, Always supportive. Like, you know, he’s like, yeah, go for it. And, we kind of have that, our relationship, like, we’re just like, we have this pact, this is really dumb, but we’re like, you can quit your job. You don’t even have to phone me. Like, it’s just like, that’s our pact. Right. I mean, we probably…
Dr. Andy Roark: You’ve discussed it, you’ve been like, Would you be okay if I quit my job and didn’t let you know?
Dr. Sarah Boston: Yeah. We don’t, we just, that’s, it’s never happened and it never would. But I think the freedom of like, you do, you will figure it out is really important. So I’ve never felt that from him. Like I’ve always felt that. And then I guess. The other thing about comedy that is just really weird is it’s just, it just drives me.
I don’t even know why. Like sometimes I am driving to downtown Toronto to go to Yak’s comedy set and I am just like, I have no idea why I’m doing this. It doesn’t make any sense, but I keep doing it. Why did I go to comedy school? I don’t know. And people like I’ve had surgeons, like they’ve said, like, what’s your plan?
Dr. Andy Roark: Yes, what is the plan? What is the plan, Sarah Boston? Like, how does this strategically [00:31:00] take you to a higher place on the ladder? I do, I like ladder because there’s such a hierarchy to it and we all are like, I move to this level and then up to this level and then up to this level. And so there’s,
Dr. Sarah Boston: I
Dr. Andy Roark: I can 100 percent
Dr. Sarah Boston: have no plan,
See
Dr. Andy Roark: people saying are you making a play to be the surgical oncologist to the stars? I mean, what do you, I don’t, even know what that means, but
Dr. Sarah Boston: I wish I had, if someone has one and they could, maybe they could put comments or let me know. I don’t know how to, I’m trying to like put this together in a little like thing that’s like, oh, that’s the perfect job for her clearly with her background in comedy and surgical oncology.
I, don’t know. I don’t know.
Dr. Andy Roark: Perfect mixture of skills, for this mission
Dr. Sarah Boston: No No one, one, yeah, like no one’s contacted me on LinkedIn asking for that. You know, I’ve not, I’ve yet to see that, but I feel like it’s just going to happen. Is that crazy? Like, I feel like it’s just, it’s gonna like, I don’t know. I, maybe it’s not,
I don’t care.
care I wish that [00:32:00] things made sense when I looked out the the windshield, but they don’t. They only make sense in the rear view. Like, if you look at my career in the rear view, I’m like, Oh man, I went here, and then here, and then this happened, and this came together. But, do I know where I’m going?
Dr. Andy Roark: I’m just, nope, I’m just driving. And, it all seems to come together behind me for some reason.
Dr. Sarah Boston: Your career looks more, your career looks strategic, but I know it’s, it wasn’t, but it looks like it is.
Dr. Andy Roark: It definitely, it looks really well put together. And I’m like, no, it was
me. It was me figuring out what, I, love to do and tried to do more of it and figure out what I didn’t like to do. And I tried to do less of it. And then it all just, it looks very strategic.
Dr. Sarah Boston: Yeah. So I, yeah, I don’t have a, I have no plan. Like, you know, I’m just doing things.
Dr. Andy Roark: Is the, ability to kind of just shake it off. And like, you were like, you know, I just laugh at this stuff. Are you saying you think that’s a learned skill? I mean, is that something that you went to accommodate? Tell me about
Dr. Sarah Boston: I a hundred percent think that I don’t,
Dr. Andy Roark: you think you learned that skill?
Dr. Sarah Boston: I think I always had that. Cause I’ve always had my sense of humor. [00:33:00] And I, you know, when I wrote my book, my funny book about cancer, like that just happened. Right. And when I lecture, there’s jokes in my lecture, like, you know, and I always felt like that was important.
So that’s always my ability to see the humor in things. But I think the ability to be like, what’s funny about that? Because I heard another comedian talking about this, so I might be taking there, but it resonated with me. It was like, you know, they talk about comedy is tragedy plus time, but comedians are always trying to be like, what’s funny about that.
And when people are laughing, you know, when I don’t know if you have family get togethers my husband’s family is really good for this cause it’s a really big family and they will look back on something. Kind of disastrous that happened, everyone’s laughing, right? Like, I don’t know. I’m just, I don’t even, I don’t know.
I can’t think of an example. Nothing where people got hurt, but like a whole meal got ruined or dinner got burnt or whatever. Like just, you know, but everyone is like. Crying they’re laughing so hard about this thing that happened and like that’s comedy, right? But if you’re a comedian [00:34:00] you can speed that up and be like, well, what’s why is that funny now?
Whatever that thing is. It seems a bit crappy What’s funny something about it will be is funny now and I think we need to do that as veterinarians and you know, I, this is where the plan, here’s the plan people, here’s the plan. I think it’s sort of my wellness. I always say that my, my comedy is my wellness.
So like, you know, veterinary medicine, we talk about wellness now, which is great. Cause that wasn’t invented when I graduated from vet school, that was not a thing, but my wellness is not like I do yoga and I do this and I do this and all the things that we’re supposed to do is just, I, you know, if you saw me at work, you would be like, she’s a fraud because I don’t do those things at work.
I don’t eat properly when it’s my two day work week, but they’re long days and I’m running around. But my wellness is my ability to see the humor and my wellness is like doing comedy and seeing what’s funny. That is my wellness. And I would love to try to figure out like, how do I [00:35:00] like bring that back to the profession?
So I do like, that is the only thing that’s kind of a, if I have a plan, that’s the only plan I have and it’s not well thought out, but I’m like. You know, can I teach veterinarians about improv? Can I teach veterinarians about comedy? Can I show veterinarians what is funny about what they perceive as stress and, horror sometimes, some things that people get so upset about, but I’m like, yes, and kind of funny too.
Like, yeah. So, and I think I laugh at things that I won’t even talk about on here because people get mad at me, but I laugh about things now that I’m just like, that’s actually kind of funny. Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark: You know, one of the reasons, and it’s so funny that you’re saying this, I’m remembering how I met you and sort of my first impressions of you, and you, one of the things I’ve always admired about you so much, even from before I really knew you, but I would see you lecture and you would be talking about surgical oncology, like [00:36:00]heavy stuff and scary stuff.
And you’re talking about doing procedures that I would be terrified to have waded into with a scalpel. And you were very candid about, well, you know, and then this goes, and, yep, that’s how this gets messed up. And and then you would say something that was really funny, and you just sucked this innate fear out of the audience about it, because everyone’s watching your talk and they’re going, Oh, my God, we are dangling, you know, we are walking on the blade of the knife here and you’re yep, and that’s what happens and it just, it’s amazing how we can be permeated with fear and stuff, especially around surgery. But you would use humor to diffuse that fear and then make, just make the whole, I don’t know, the whole experience just felt much more approachable because you’re the one who did the surgery, and it went badly, and you laughed about it, and everything turned out okay.
And it just, it made it all feel much more accessible [00:37:00] to me than if you had been like, look, you really can’t mess this up. And, it went badly for me, but I waded in and did it. this thing. And I would have been like, Oh, well, I’m never going to go into that neighborhood. And so I don’t know. I just, it’s always something that I’ve admired.
And I think you do that really well. So if I had to sort of say, how have I seen comedy and humor weave into the very specific niche high level thing that you do? I think that’s something you’ve always had. Sarah, your book, Lucky Dog is great. I recommend it for people who are interested in reading something about that medicine and also an individual’s cancer journey.
I think it’s really wonderful. You have a podcast called co medicine. Do you wanna talk about that for a second?
Dr. Sarah Boston: I would love to you have been on it, so thank you. So yeah, another concept of mine, just meeting people who are healthcare professionals, so not just veterinarians who also do comedy and like every time I meet someone like that I’m like, I must talk to them about this very specific area on the venn diagram and what we have in common.
And it’s been a blast. I, we are in [00:38:00] season two working towards season three and I’ve had, I just interviewed a paramedic, so we’ve had a paramedic, a nurse physicians, dentists, physiotherapists. Veterinarians. I’m still waiting for my veterinary Oh no. A veterinary technician. Yes. I have veterinary technicians.
So, yeah. I need a physiotherapist. I’m talking to a physiotherapist. So, yeah, at really any healthcare professional who does improv or comedy or acting comedic acting and it’s been amazing. Like I. I already knew you, but it was great to have you on. But I’ve met some really cool people and yeah, it’s just been a ton of fun.
Dr. Andy Roark: That’s awesome. Well, guys, you can get co medicine wherever you get your podcast. Sarah, thanks so much for being here. Guys, thanks for tuning in and listening. Take care of yourselves, everybody.
Dr. Sarah Boston: Thank you for having me.
Dr. Andy Roark: And that’s it. That’s what I got. I hope you guys enjoyed it Thanks to Sarah for being here guys.
I took a number of things away from this episode I didn’t want to say at the beginning because I didn’t want to kind of spoil kind of where the conversation goes but I think the idea about switching ladders and that it’s the idea that Sarah [00:39:00] is doing something that she Plans to be good at and that she’s serious about I think that’s important I think that as I look back at my own career, I don’t think I’ve ever stopped and said ooh What is this going to mean for my identity?
I’ve always just found another ladder that I was excited about climbing and just Climbed it and I didn’t worry a lot. I think a lot about like Am I allowed to do this? Does this fit with who I have been or with my training? I don’t know. I think there’s something to that. I’m gonna keep thinking about it, but it was just what a great conversation I really appreciate her time.
I she’s someone I so admire. So anyway guys, thanks for being here. Take care of yourselves everybody I’ll talk to you later. Bye