Andy Roark DVM MS

Jamie Holms RVT interviews Dr. Andy Roark about his recent article in Today’s Veterinary Business titled “Measuring Sticks.” They discuss how we determine our own self worth and the tendency for driven people to choose unhelpful and unhealthy measurements by which to judge themselves.

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LINKS

ARTICLE: Measuring Sticks

Dr. Andy Roark Resources 

Dr. Andy Roark Exam Room Communication Tool Box Team Training Course

Dr. Andy Roark Charming the Angry Client Team Training Course

Dr. Andy Roark Swag

ABOUT OUR GUEST

Jamie Holms RVT is a new chicken mom and the Administrative Manager for Dr. Andy Roark, Uncharted Veterinary Conferences. Jamie is passionate about helping the people who are helping pets and is a firm believer that the future of the veterinary profession is bright. Jamie is obsessed with baby goats, axolotls, hedgehogs, tea, plants (especially hoyas), kindle books, food, and sleep – not necessarily in that order.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Andy Roark:
Welcome everybody to the Cone of Shame veterinary podcast. I am your host, Dr. Andy Roark. Guys, I got my good friend Jamie Holms on the episode. Jamie Holms is RVT. She’s a dear friend of mine. She’s the first employee I ever hired. We go way back. We go back like popsicles on the porch in summertime. That’s how we go back. All that to say, I’ve known Jamie a long time. And when I write articles that really speak to her, she often says, “Hey, can we do a podcast on that article?” And I have an article called Measuring Sticks about how we measure ourselves, how we determine our own worth. And I think a lot of us really driven people have a bad habit of choosing measurements that are unattainable. We measure ourselves in ways that are not healthy, they’re not productive, they make us feel bad. They don’t really motivate us in any sort of way that is sustainable.
And I think that we all should probably take a step back and just unravel the self-talk that we have around what gives us worth and what gives us value, and how do we measure ourselves and how do we measure success. And so anyway, that’s what we get into. If that sounds of interest, then you’ll like this episode. But anyway, Jamie comes on and we talk about the article and I kind of laid down a lot of thoughts about that. So anyway, guys, I hope you’ll enjoy this episode. Always makes me a little self-conscious to get interviewed on my own stuff, on my own podcast, but I don’t know, I write things that I think are interesting and that really speak to me and this is something I’ve been really thinking a lot about. And so anyway, I was really excited when Jamie said, “Hey, I really like that. Maybe we could talk about it.” So I hope you’ll enjoy the conversation. I think it’s a good one. Let’s get into it and see what you think.

Kelsey Beth Carpenter:
(singing) This is your show. We’re glad you’re here. We want to help you in your veterinary career. Welcome to the Cone of Shame with Dr. Andy Roark.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Welcome to the podcast, Jamie Holms. Thanks for being here.

Jamie Holms:
Oh, I’m so happy to be here. Thanks for having me again.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I always enjoy having you on the podcast. For those who do not know you, you and I have worked together forever. It feels like you were employee number @drandyroark.com.

Jamie Holms:
Before you.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Before me, exactly. You hired me on @drandyroark.com and it worked out really well because that was my name and it went great. You are an RVT. We were just laughing that you are a rivett and not a live it.

Jamie Holms:
So true.

Dr. Andy Roark:
So true. You are the administrative manager for drandywork.com and Uncharted Veterinary Conference. And so that’s who you are. You babysit my tomato plants when I travel in the summer and sometimes my bad golden doodle skipper.

Jamie Holms:
He’s not bad. He’s misunderstood and he loves me so much.

Dr. Andy Roark:
He does love you a lot. According to behaviorist Lisa Radosta, he has low confidence, is his problem.

Jamie Holms:
I love that that’s how we ended up here. That’s so funny because I wanted to talk about this article and I told you I wanted to talk about this article and I was like, I think I’m going to lead in with talking about Skipper and his confidence issue.

Dr. Andy Roark:
His confidence issue. Okay, fine.

Jamie Holms:
So this is perfect.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Okay. So I have a goldendoodle named Skipper who is just as a side, he’s not what you would call a good dog. He lives his truth openly and it’s not one of obedience and the thrill of making his owner happy, but he’s his own person and he does have a trait that drives me nuts as he’ll piddle on the floor when people come over or he gets excited. And so I talked to Dr. Lisa Radosta, she’s coming onto the podcast and I had her on to talk about inner cat aggression or something, and I did that thing where I was like, hey, while you’re here, can I ask you about a case? And I told her about Skipper and she asked me a bunch of questions about what he does with his ears and how he sort of behaves.
And the takeaway I think from her not really getting to see him was she thinks that this is sort of a conflict response and that he has confidence issues and that’s why he meets people in piddles. And so I have been trying to work on my golden doodles confidence and it is the most ridiculous project I have ever gone on. But I don’t know, I’m just going to stop and say I do not know if we are making progress. For three or four, five days I’m like, we’re nailing this and then there’s just a setback. And I’m just like, his confidence is it cannot be saved, I don’t think if he’s not a confident guy.

Jamie Holms:
Well, I love this for a lot of reasons. One is that, I don’t know if you know this, but my nickname is Walnut.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I did not know this.

Jamie Holms:
That is not because I am a tough nut to crack. It is because I have a very tiny bladder and I maybe eat abruptly the size of a walnut. And so I always need to pee. And the moment you-

Dr. Andy Roark:
Do you get excited and pee? Do you pee when you meet new people?

Jamie Holms:
I need to pee when I meet new people. I have better bladder control than Skipper does, but that doesn’t make me a better person.

Dr. Andy Roark:
But you have more confidence, I think.

Jamie Holms:
I have more lived experience than Skipper does, but I definitely, the moment someone is like, your flight is going to board in 15 minutes, I’m like, I got to pee. And then they’re like, the flight is now now boarding, I’m like, I have to pee again.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I get that.

Jamie Holms:
It’s just how it is. And so I have a lot of empathy for his situation. But it made me think about confidence and I can think about times when I’m really confident, but that made me go well, when am I really insecure? And so I was thinking about that. And so I wanted to start with the deep question. So Andy Roark, tell me what makes you feel insecure?

Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh boy. What does make me feel insecure? Let’s see. Anytime that I feel like I’m not going to live up to the expectation that people have of me, I get insecure anytime that people are like, I feel like people expect something from me that I’m not going to be able to do, I’m much more worried about letting people down than I am not being able to do the thing, whatever the thing is. And so I am definitely insecure about that and singing. I can’t carry a tune in a bucket, and I am very insecure about singing, but I enjoy it when nobody’s around. But those are my two things. Singing and when people feel like they have expectations of me that I don’t think that I’m going to be able to meet.

Jamie Holms:
So I get a huge gift out of working with you, which is I get to read the articles before anybody else does. And so I was really excited when I read this Measuring Sticks article, which went out in Today’s Veterinary Business, and it’s about how we use all of these, especially in the veterinary profession, all of these things from the outside to judge our self-worth and our confidence. You talk about the SATs and your test scores and how people continue to look for that test to take or that new accreditation to get. And I was thinking about that with this, and I love that you are like, yes, I’m in it. I also get insecure when I think I’m not going to live up to the thing that other people want. And in this article you’re talking about how it’s an internal thing, it’s not the things we get from other people. So I love it that you’re like, yes, I also do this thing.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, I absolutely do this. So it’s comparison. It’s the flip side to comparing yourself to other people. And so one of my favorite sayings is comparison is a thief of joy. And I see so many people who are so wildly unhappy because they compare themselves to other people. And I think this is the worst thing about social media, and I think there’s a lot of worst things about social media, but this is probably the worst thing about social media is a lot of social media is geared up about getting us to compare ourselves to other people. And we look. And I don’t think people intentionally mean this to happen, but I think we all know it happens at some level, but people sort of post and I can’t help but look and say, man, their vacation looks better than my vacation. Or, boy, they do a lot of things with their kids more than I do. And oh man, I wish I could have gotten free from work to go to the Christmas event at my kid’s school. And wow, look at the fun Saturday they’re having with their dog.
I barely have time to take my dog out and walk a much less spend half the day at the dog park and then go to a cookout. There’s so much of that. But the counterpart to that, which I think is much more common, is the comparison of ourself to some metric that may not be another person. It’s some belief of what we should be doing or what success should be. And so I’ve talked about Skipper before when I talk about what it means to have a bad dog. And the truth is I say that jokingly. The truth is, if you compare Skipper to, I don’t know, Lassie or you say, boy, a good dog comes immediately when they’re called and they’re always right beside you and they don’t pull on the leash and they would never steal food off the table and they don’t piddle on the floor when people come over, then Skipper’s not a good dog.
But if you reset that measuring stick and you say, “I like I want a fun dog, I want a dog that’s always up for adventures and likes to play and squeaks his toys and runs around and is big and goofy and just genuinely funny and happy to be here,” then he is a good dog. But it’s the measuring stick that you set of what does it mean to be a good dog? And so that’s the basic idea with this. But I started writing this thing because I started looking around it and it was a kind of week that came and went. And I just had all these people around me who were just struggling. And one of them was a vet who was struggling. She didn’t think she was a real vet because she only worked one day a week in the clinic and that was really bothering her.
And there was another vet that was really hacked off because friends from high school were messaging her and asking for advice and she felt like she absolutely had to answer them in that moment at dinner and she was just mad. This is dah, dah, dah. And I asked her, I said, “Why do you do this?” And she’s like, “Well, because that’s what I do.” Basically that’s what it means to be a good vet is you drop what you’re doing and you help people who reach out to you. And I’m like, if that’s exactly how you define being good vet, then you are selecting this measuring tool. I don’t believe that dropping what you’re doing in the middle of dinner to ask pet health questions from people in high school is what it means to be a good vet. I don’t buy that.
But that’s a conscious rejection of that ruler for what it means to be a good vet. And so the same thing is people struggling with their confidence because they were not in the top half of their vet school class. And it’s like, I’m sorry, at what time did we all come together and say, “Hey, you know what constitutes being a good vet? The GPA you graduate with?” I wasn’t at that meeting. And if I was, I would not have voted for that because I was not in the top half of my vet school class. And I don’t think that that defines me as a subpar veterinarian in practice. I just don’t believe it.
Hey guys, I just want to jump in real quick and let you know about some great continuing education I have coming your way. Guys, I’ve partnered with Nationwide to put together a series of webinars that are 100%free to you. They have RACE CE, they are good to go, and they are going to be, first of all just genuinely entertaining and fascinating. The first thing I got coming for you is on November the 14th with my good friend Dr. Emily Tincher. She’s been on the podcast a number of times. I love having her here. She’s such a fun, interesting person who’s a deep thinker. And so anyway, she is doing a webinar called Clinical Empathy: The Exam Room Skill that Can Transform Your Team. I’ve had Emily on the podcast before talking about clinical empathy. This is a really good skill building webinar. This is great for your support staff as well as your doctors, but your team leads especially, but your technicians, your assistants, your CSRs, all of this is just, it’s such a great communication content. I think you’re going to really like it.
So anyway, that is on November the 14th. It is at 3:00 PM Eastern noon Pacific. And then the last one in the series is on December 13th. It is with Dr. Simon Platt. It is called Head Cases, a spectrum of care approach to neurology in general practice. So if you’re a neurology buff, if you like seizures, if you like knowing about seizures, if you like a neurophysical exam, tips, tricks and hacks, things like that, this is going to be a great webinar. So again, this is on December 13th. It’s at 1:00 PM Eastern, that’s 10:00 AM Pacific time. Gang, I would love to see you there. Links to all this stuff in the show notes. Go ahead and grab a spot, I’ll see you there. Let’s get back into this episode.

Jamie Holms:
Yeah. I think that that’s very true and I think we continue to use some of those weird metrics and they made sense when we were using them. One of the things, my dad said this to me the other day, my dad is 81 and I love him very much and he was having an old man moment-

Dr. Andy Roark:
I have those.

Jamie Holms:
… which he readily admitted. And he was like, “Did you know that those people can’t write in cursive?” And I was like, “Who cares?” That’s not a metric. That doesn’t make them a bad person. Why would they need to write in cursive? And he’s like, well, we had to write in cursive. And I’m like, “Dad, people used to hit you with a ruler because you were dyslexic.” And he’s like, yeah, okay, okay, old man moment. But it was funny because he pulled this random metric that doesn’t matter today. And I know there are people out there who believe that there’s a big cursive argument of whether we should be teaching it or not. And I understand how it helps your brain, I get that part. But is it going to help you be a better person later in life? Probably not. It’s the same thing as your clients aren’t asking you, “Hey, what was your GPA when you graduated?” They care more about your empathy and whether or not you bond with their pet and whether or not you think that fluffy is actually cute.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Doctor, can you write in cursive?

Jamie Holms:
Yes, exactly.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I’m going to need to see someone else.

Jamie Holms:
Yeah, exactly. I love that. And so I was thinking about how funny it is that we do pick these things and we measure ourselves. And mine used to be I judged myself on the number of CE hours that I had.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh, wow.

Jamie Holms:
And I, you’ll be shocked to know, always had hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours of CE.

Dr. Andy Roark:
You had hundreds of hours of CE?

Jamie Holms:
Hundreds of hours because-

Dr. Andy Roark:
I do this for a living and I don’t have hundreds of hours of CE.

Jamie Holms:
Yes, I know. But I would go home and I would take every CE thing that was in every magazine. I would do every free CE that came from IDEXX or from the food company, whoever it was. I would take all of that CE because I was just like, the more that I can show that I know, the more people will value my contribution, which was never true because nobody else ever saw that.

Dr. Andy Roark:
No one asked you how much CE you had.

Jamie Holms:
No, no one.

Dr. Andy Roark:
They said, do you have enough? And you said yes. And they were like, okay. And that was that.

Jamie Holms:
Great. Yeah, that was the end of the story. But I held myself to that expectation. And then as I went farther out of practice and started using my skills differently, I started doing less CE. And I didn’t abandon it entirely, I still more than meet my needs, but I looked at it differently. And if I was still holding myself to that same thing, I don’t know that I could do that anymore. My brain is older, I have less energy. I don’t know about you, but I used to be able to stay all night and work all day and my brain doesn’t do that anymore. So I love that we’re talking about how to find different metrics.
And I think self-worth is one of those. And I think that that’s something we’ve talked about before, how imposter syndrome and our colleagues just, they don’t necessarily have the self-worth. And I love that I have people on our team that I can turn to and be like, hey, can you hold this mirror up for a second because I can’t see myself well right now? And they can help me with that. And I was wondering if you had thoughts about how we help our colleagues find a different stick. You had some great ideas about things to use, but how do we shift this for the community?

Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, I think a lot of it is, I think we all struggle to see ourselves. You know what I mean? I think we all struggle to see ourselves. At some level, I think we all kind of wonder if we’re a good doctor or we wonder if we’re a good technician or whatever. Are we a good communicator? Are we a good boss? I did a podcast just recently with Dr. Natalie Marks and she was talking about perfectionism and being a practice owner. It was just fascinating to listen to her talk about this. And she sort of told the story of having this sort of realization that perfectionism is a manifestation of fear and that it was detrimental in what she was trying to accomplish. And towards the end of the episode, I asked her, “How did you come to this realization?” Because we were talking about the truth of the situation and kind of how to manage that if you have perfectionistic tendencies, but I was struck, how’d you come to realize this?
And she told this great story about being a practice owner and really wanting to be a great boss and then doing 360 degree feedback because that was what you were supposed to do. And she just got hit by a brick when someone was like, you are super intimidating. And it was absolutely, it sort of hammered her and made her short stop and step back. And so I think we all wrestle with that. I think one other piece of this that I want to tie into this before I start talking about what we can do about it, but again, it feels like a related thing is man, there’s so many veterinarians or vet techs looking at things that they want to do or whoever that are just waiting for permission. Is this idea that they need someone to tell them that they can have what they want or they can do what they want or they don’t have to care about this thing. It’s amazing.
It almost like it takes someone to say to them, “Hey, I saw the Google review that you got where someone wrote a one star review of you as a doctor because they called you at the clinic and it was your day off. I see that and I want you to know that’s ridiculous and that’s not your fault and you should ignore that.” And it seems absurd that someone have to give you permission to look at this obviously flawed thing and say that’s not representative of who you are. But I think a lot of us really want to hear that from someone else. And so I think one of the things that we can do for each other as colleagues is to point out what really matters to each other and just say, “Hey, I saw the impact you had on that person and that was amazing. And hey, I want you to know you’re a good friend and a good doctor. And hey, I always appreciate your insight and you’re a great mentor and that means a lot.”
And I think that people get so sucked up into other metrics that are communicated to them, they often forget about that stuff, but we can point that out to each other. I think the biggest thing for me in choosing the measuring sticks that matter is just being aware of the measuring sticks. I think my greatest hope with writing the article, and now we’re talking to you about this, is that people will just stop for just a minute and say, what measuring sticks am I measuring success with? And again, I have chosen so badly so many times in my life and just the process of stopping and evaluating like, wait a second, how am I measuring myself here? I mean, I used to beat myself up because of the number of hours that I worked or didn’t work in the practice, and I would beat myself up as a parent for the number of hours I spent with my kids.
And at some point I had to stop and say, well, wait a second, Andy, is hours in close proximity to your children, is that the measurement that we’re going to use here? Because I don’t know that that’s the best actual measurement of what we’re trying to accomplish. And the same thing the clinic is like, is me just physically being here, does that actually mean anything? I mean, we’re not talking about the number of patients I see. That’s just me being at the building and I feel guilty if I’m not at the building. And I go, this doesn’t make any sense. And so I just think so many of us, we don’t even question the measurements or other people put them on us. So you get called in for your performance review and the manager is like, “Hey, this is the number of pets that you saw in the last quarter and this is your average client transaction. And from those two numbers, I’m going to tell you if you’re a good doctor or not.”
And I’m like, no, you’re not. No, you’re not. You can tell me how many patients I saw and you can tell me what my average clinical transaction was, but I’m sorry, that’s not a two metric equation that makes a good doctor. I’m not saying those things are without value or we should ignore them, but I don’t buy the idea that I’m going to be summed up by those two metrics. Or you going to give those two metrics and say, this is really what matters. Because I’m sorry, I have my own beliefs about what measurements it takes to be a good doctor. And they’re around compassion, they’re around empathy. They’re around taking time to listen. It’s understanding other people. It’s being honest and acting with integrity. It’s being patient and kind. It’s all of those sorts of things. It’s continuing to learn. It’s being a better doctor than I was a year ago.
All of those things are measuring sticks that I’m interested in. I’m not saying anyone is worth any more than the others, but you just have to be really careful, especially if we get into this mindset of the only thing that matters is how many hours I spend at the practice, how much money I make in a quarter, things like that. You go, man, you’re summing way too much up into this one ruler. It’s not that good a ruler. It’s just not.

Jamie Holms:
Yeah, I completely agree with that. And I wanted to shout both preach and say it one more time for the people in the back because I hear so many people in the community talking about how they’re not good at this thing. We have a really good friend who’s a very good manager, and they are in a circumstance where there’s a new gig in town and a whole bunch of people left that practice.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Wow, brutal.

Jamie Holms:
Yeah. And she’s like, I am a bad manager. It’s like that isn’t why people are leaving. They are leaving because there are different hours. They’re leaving because of all of these other things, and you can’t judge yourself on that one thing. There are 10 other things that I know about you and I know about the people who work with you and your compassion and your care for the animals and for the people that work for you and what you do for our community as a whole. And again, when you’re in it, it’s real hard to stop and say, what is my measuring stick? What’s my measurement of success? And knowing that people look at it differently.
And there are things that we can change about how we talk to ourselves. And I think that would be my challenge to our community is to say, hey, when you hear people say, I am not good at this, or I don’t measure up in this way, or I’m not good enough, I challenge you to do what I like to do, which is to say, don’t talk about my friend like that. And I learned that because I had a really bad self-talk. I continued to have a bad self-talk. And so I learned to ask myself the question of would I say that to a friend? And if I wouldn’t say it to a friend, then I don’t get to say it to me.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I like that a lot. I took that from you, and I use that a lot when somebody will be down on themselves and it’s say, “God, I am the worst. I’m such an idiot.” I will say, “Hey, don’t say that about my friend.” And I learned that from you. And so I really do like that as sort of catching some self-talk. One of the other things going back to our person who’s feeling terrible because people are leaving their practice to go work at a new place that’s opening up is, it’s one of those things about picking your rulers again, going back to how are you going to measure yourself? I think we should all be really conscious and cognizant of the idea that we should not be picking ways to measure ourselves that are out of our control. And I see that all the time. You don’t get to control pet owners. Yet I myself would define, I would say, oh, I’m a good vet because I get good Google reviews.
And I’m like, buddy Andy, you are putting your self-worth into the hands of other people and you don’t have the power to make those people happy. There are going to be people who are just not going to like you and there’s nothing you can do about it. And it’s giving them the power to tell you whether or not you’re successful. I think it’s a bad idea. I think if you’re a manager and you set this bar at like, I’m going to have a hundred percent retention rate, no one’s going to leave my practice. I would say, you don’t have the power to keep these people at your practice. You don’t control what other practices can pay. You don’t control what other opportunities come along. You don’t control where other practices open up. Maybe they’re much more convenient to get to. You can’t control if people are just tired and want to change the scenery. You don’t have control over any of those things.
And so using that metric of retaining other people as the definer of whether or not you’re successful, I go, I think that that’s a bad measurement. I think that’s where I’d probably leave this and sum it up is my biggest thing on choosing the measurements that we use for ourselves is one, just to stop and recognize that you’re doing it. Recognizing. Just stop and say, how am I measuring myself here? I feel like I’m failing. What metrics am I using to come to that result? And what are alternative metrics that might be better? And I think it’s 100% on that. And the other part is to stop and say, what metrics are in my control? Am I picking things that I really do not have control over? And if you are, I think you should really rethink those measurements. I think you should go back to the things that you actually have input on.
And so you should decide what it means to be a good parent or a good spouse, not based on what other people think about your relationship, but what you and your partner think on your relationship or you and your kids find meaning in and what you’re going to look back on and be proud of. But it shouldn’t be, Hey, this is what Facebook says parents should do. Forget that that’s noise. But anyway, that’s sort of my thing with the rulers that we choose for ourself. It’s funny. And a lot of us have this ability to cycle through rulers where we measure ourselves this way and we measure ourselves that way and we measure ourselves this way, and none of the ways we choose to measure ourselves are kind. And I just think that that’s sad and that’s silly.
And so it’s something that I definitely picked up in my life is my younger self always chose harsh measurements. And I told myself that was the right thing to do because it was motivating. It was always motivating. But at some point, I don’t need to be motivated like that anymore. You know what I mean? I am, honestly, I’m doing my best. I’m happy with the work that I’m doing and how I’m doing it. I want an honest measurement, not a measurement that’s going to motivate me or terrify me or make me feel guilty so that I work harder or do things that, I don’t know, that I wouldn’t otherwise do.

Jamie Holms:
Yeah, I think that’s a perfect place to end, and I’d like to invite you to come back and talk with me about the art of kindness in an imperfect world.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh yeah. Oh, that’s funny. Yeah, The Art of Kindness article is a fun. It dovetails into this-

Jamie Holms:
I think so.

Dr. Andy Roark:
So the thing I want to talk to you about as well, I think I’m writing this piece right now based on what our friend Maria Pirita said to me recently.

Jamie Holms:
Is it, “Who’s Laughing Now?”

Dr. Andy Roark:
No, it was not.

Jamie Holms:
Oh, dang it. That’s a good story.

Dr. Andy Roark:
She does say, who’s laughing now? And that is a great story. I’ll tell a story at some point. But she was basically, we were talking about mindsets, and her mindset is just, it doesn’t seem that hard. That doesn’t seem that hard. And so when you say something to Maria like, oh man, we got to do this surgery. And she’s like, “How hard can it be?” That was the wording. How hard can it be? And I just thought it’s the best mindset you can possibly have is how hard can it be? And I’ve gotten myself into a lot of trouble with how hard can it be? But I’ve also had the best experiences in my life. I’ve also learned more than anything else, I have also just had the most fun, and I’ve also grown as a person when I have thought to myself, how hard can it be? And then I weighed in. So anyway, I think we’ll talk about that in the future.

Jamie Holms:
I can’t wait to read that article. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Thanks guys. And that’s it. That’s our episode, guys. I hope you enjoyed it. Thanks to Jamie for coming on. Thanks to Jamie for making the episode happen, because if she hadn’t said, “I really like the article and I’d like to talk to you about it on the podcast,” I don’t think I ever would’ve flipped on the microphone. So anyway, thanks to her for that. Guys, if you enjoy the podcast, it always means the world to me when people leave us an honest review. It’s how people find us. It gives me some feedback on the work that we’re doing, and it means a lot. So anyway, if you have a moment and you enjoy the podcast, please leave me an honest review wherever you get your podcasts, and or share the episodes with your friends. So anyway, guys, that’s all I got. Take care of yourselves, be well. I’ll talk to you later on.

Dr. Natalie Marks joins Dr. Andy Roark to discuss her recent article on “The Daring Release of Perfectionism.” They discuss how the selection process for veterinary school and success within veterinary school may favor perfectionistic tendencies, and the drawbacks these tendencies have in practice. Finally, they talk about how to manage perfectionism and make peace with it.

You can also listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, Soundcloud, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts!

LINKS

ARTICLE: The Daring Release of Perfectionism

Marks DVM Consulting

Dr. Natalie Marks on LinkedIn

Dr. Andy Roark Resources 

Dr. Andy Roark Exam Room Communication Tool Box Team Training Course

Dr. Andy Roark Charming the Angry Client Team Training Course

Dr. Andy Roark Swag

Clinical Empathy Webinar with Dr. Andy Roark and Dr. Emily Tincher

ABOUT OUR GUEST

Dr. Natalie Marks obtained her bachelor’s degree with High Honors in Animal Science from the University of Illinois in 1998, and then proceeded to obtain a Masters in Veterinary Medicine and Doctorate of Veterinary Medicine degree with High Honors from the University of Illinois College of Veterinary Medicine. She became a Certified Veterinary Journalist in 2018.

She has been a veterinarian at Blum Animal Hospital since 2006, co-owner until 2018 and current associate. Prior to 2006, Dr. Marks worked at Allatoona Animal Hospital just north of Atlanta, GA. Her media experience began in print when she created several monthly veterinary columns in multiple community magazines and was a frequent guest speaker for the German Shepherd and Bernese Mountain Dog clubs of Atlanta.

Upon her return to Chicago, Dr. Marks became very active in the Chicago Veterinary Medical Association, serving on the executive board. She was also a past board member of the Illinois State Veterinary Medical Association and an active volunteer to the American Veterinary Medical Association and American Animal Hospital Association.

Dr. Marks has received many prestigious awards in her career. She was awarded the Dr. Erwin Small First Decade Award, presented to a veterinarian that has contributed the most to organized veterinary medicine in his or her first decade of practice. In 2012, Dr. Marks was awarded Petplan’s nationally-recognized Veterinarian of the Year. In 2015, she was awarded America’s Favorite Veterinarian by the American Veterinary Medical Foundation. And, most recently in 2017, she was awarded Nobivac’s Veterinarian of the Year for her work on canine Influenza.

Dr. Marks is also very passionate about educating in all aspects of media, both locally and nationally. She has appeared on Good Day Chicago, WGN-Pet Central, NBC Morning News, ABC, CBS, NPR, WBBM, Northwestern University media channel and many local websites. Dr. Marks was featured nationally on the Today Show and CBS Nightly News during the canine influenza epidemic of 2015 and in multiple issues of JAVMA. She is a guest contributor in multiple media campaigns for Merck, Zoetis (formerly Pfizer), Boerhinger-Ingelheim, Ceva, Trupanion, Aratana, ScopioVet, and Royal Canin.

Dr. Marks is a regular columnist in Today’s Veterinary Business, Healthy Pet magazine, and Pet Vet, and has been published in Veterinary Medicine magazine, DVM magazine, Dogster, and Vetted. She is on the Advisory Board for Health Magazine and also was the host of numerous veterinary broadcasts for the Viticus Group (formerly WVC).

She is a desired national and international lecturer for many of the same companies at VMX, WVC, AVMA and regional conferences, and most recently was a featured speaker at Ceva Sweden’s Derm Day and the Royal Canin Global Symposium.

Dr. Marks finds the ideal combination of teaching/mentoring and improving the emotional health of pets in the Fear Free movement. She sat on the Fear Free Executive Council and is a national educator helping other private practitioners develop these techniques. She also led her practice to become the 7th nationally and first practice in Illinois to become a Fear Free Certified Hospital. She is an Elite Fear Free Certified Professional.

Finally, Dr. Marks is a serial entrepreneur, angel investor and consultant, and one of the newer members of VANE, the Veterinary Angel Network.

When Dr, Marks is not working, she treasures her time with her family and her three wonderful children: Sophia, Evan and Madeline. Dr. Marks loves traveling, scuba diving, cooking and spending time outdoors, especially anywhere there is a beach!

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Andy Roark:
Welcome everybody to the Cone of Shame Veterinary Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Andy Roark. Guys, I am here with my friend, Dr. Natalie Marks. She’s amazing. She’s a practicing veterinarian. She’s an entrepreneur, she’s a lecturer, she’s a writer. She does so, so many things. I really love an article that she wrote called The Daring Release of Perfectionism, and she talks a bit in this article about dealing with perfectionistic tendencies as a leader in practice, as a veterinarian, as a colleague.
And then when we get into this episode, we talk a little bit about her own sort of epiphany that perfectionism was undermining what she was trying to do and how she sort of wrestled with that. Man, this is one of my favorite conversations of the year. It really is. I hope you’ll give this episode a chance. If you see yourself as a bit of a perfectionist, if you work with people who are perfectionists and you recognize that it’s a double-edged sword, this is a really good episode. So anyway, I hope you’ll really enjoy this. Dr. Natalie Marks is amazing. Let’s get into this episode.

Kelsey Beth Carpenter:
(Singing) This is your show. We’re glad you’re here. We want to help you in your veterinary career. Welcome to The Cone of Shame with Dr. Andy Roark.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Natalie Marks. Thanks for being here.

Dr. Natalie Marks:
Thanks for having me back, Andy. It’s good to be here.

Dr. Andy Roark:
It’s wonderful to have you. You have been here at least three times. I really enjoy you. You are my discovery of 2023, I think. I don’t know that you were on before 2023, and now I can’t have you on enough. I enjoy so much that you’re doing. For those who do not know you, you are an educator, a consultant, a practicing veterinarian in Chicago. You are a leader in the Fear Free movement. You were a member of the original Fear Free Advisory Board. You have won crazy awards that I have to say I’m super jealous of. You were in 2012, you won the pet plan Veterinarian of the Year award, which I was involved with putting on that ceremony and stuff. And so if people don’t remember, it was a big deal. You were voted America’s favorite veterinarian by the American Veterinary Medical Foundation. You just rack it. You rack up big awards and you’re doing so much. It’s amazing to me. You make me tired and I do a lot.

Dr. Natalie Marks:
Oh, my gosh. Well, that’s saying something. I feel like you’re always on the go too.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh, man.

Dr. Natalie Marks:
Well, it’s interesting you bring that up because it sort of relates to what we’re going to talk about today, which is just that overachieving drive that a lot of us also coincidentally have with perfectionists. And so I’m curious to see what we can tease out.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. No, I agree. I think it’s funny. You’re exactly right in that that is the setup for where we’re going. You wrote an article that I saw and I really liked. It was in Today’s Veterinary Business, it was called The Daring Release of Perfectionism. And in it you talk about, you say that our colleagues, clients, and patients are better served when we simply strive for excellence over perfection. And so, one of the things sort of appreciate about you is I see a number of my own tendencies of just have “I have to be the best. We have to accomplish more. We have to make a bigger difference. We have to get more things done.”
And I really personally wrestle with this a lot because you can push yourself for perfection to the point that it becomes counterproductive. And I have often struggled with trying to figure out where that line is of pushing myself hard enough that I continue to make progress and feel good about what I’ve done at the end of the day, but not push myself into the negative place that I’ve been before where I’m like, “Andy, you’ve got to let some of this go.” So let me sort of pause there and let you sort of lay out your thesis on perfectionism.

Dr. Natalie Marks:
Yeah, as you mentioned just when we were chatting, it is a really significant double-edged sword, but I think has sort of overtaken the veterinary industry because so many of us, just to even get into veterinary school, we were told we have to do get almost straight As. Our academics have to be stellar and we have to do all of this sort of extra internships or volunteerism ahead of time. And you should have done a research project and maybe should have also have these recommendations, which means you have to do this extra. And it’s all about truly overachieving, because there were only so many spaces with how many applicants. Although the situation has changed a little bit, certainly with the shortage of veterinarians. But certainly when you and I were in school, that’s how it started.
You get into school and it’s throw, how many, 36 hours of caseload at you every semester. Many of us had jobs, many of us were volunteering, working at clinics. But I think the underlying theme that connects that… As Taylor, we were talking about Taylor Swift. The invisible string that connects so many of us is that we want to be perfect. It starts in a healthy way. And I think many of us maybe were raised that way or encouraged that way or genetically have some of that in us or all of the above. Nature versus nurture, however it was, we ended up at the same place that in order to be the best, we have to be perfect. And what I found as I was sort of thinking about this and reflecting on especially my year as practice owner, I found that it often led more to detriment than to benefit. Not just me, but to my team, to the families and clients I was working with, to my patients, to my family, to my friends.
And the key though, and I think the trick is identifying it in the moment versus having to do this reactive approach that I’m doing right now. It’s hopefully helping obviously in this next chapter of life, but so many of us have our blinders on and are so busy in the muck of practice, and I say muck in the most positive way, but you’re in that daily grind and not realizing that if you just take a few of, hopefully the tips and tricks we’ll talk about today and apply them. These are not major things. These are sort of, if you’ve read about atomic habits, these are little things that can make a huge difference in how you feel, how you present yourself, how you’re received. But I think the goal of all this is how can we make veterinary medicine a lifelong career? I think that is a key of why so many of us have left, why a lot of people have said, “I just can’t do this any more,” because of this.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, there’s so much to unpack there. So I completely agree. I think we select for perfectionists going into vet school. And so those are the people who go through the hoops and set themselves in a place where they get selected. And then when we get trained, I think we train people to be perfectionists. And again, I know things in vet schools are changing and their curriculum is evolving and I think it’s wonderful, but generally we don’t work collaboratively in vet school. We work as individuals and we are graded on our perfection, on our completeness. And so I think that we select for people who have that fixation and we further train to that. And then we put them out into a scenario where honestly being a perfectionist, just from a pragmatic business standpoint, is really limiting. The vets that really thrive are ones who are okay with something not being exactly perfect as long as it’s good enough and they didn’t have to do it.
And it’s like that’s how you leverage staff. That’s how you’re able to get work done. But if the only way that something is good enough is if you yourself do it. There’s no way out of that. It’s absolutely limiting. Can you flesh out some of your comments, because I think this is important to get our heads around? So you say perfectionism is not ideal for our team, it’s not ideal for our patients, it’s not ideal for our clients. Can you sort of flesh out what that looks like? I think some people would say, why is perfectionism not ideal for our patients? How is that true?

Dr. Natalie Marks:
Right. Well, so let’s start specifically just right with medicine. And what I think both of us… And I don’t mean to speak for you, but I would assume you would feel this way. We aren’t saying, I’m certainly not saying, just strive to be sort of average. If you’re doing surgery in an average way, that’s fine. Not at all where we’re getting at. But I think a perfect example, and I’m glad that I went right to surgery because I think this is a key. When we as perfectionists, we often will think to ourselves one of two scenarios. Let’s say you are brand new associate and you’re like, I have a client that comes in and they want to have a gastropexy and you’ve never done a gastropexy. Many perfectionists will actually do one of two scenarios. They will either say to themselves, I’ve never done this before. I don’t want to fail, so I’m not even going to learn.
I’m not going to take the steps. I’m going to decline this. I’m going to shy away from this because if I can’t be perfect, I shouldn’t even try. But there’s another camp of perfectionist that will say, I’m going to admit to myself I don’t really know what I’m doing, but I would never let anybody see that fear. I would never ask for help because God forbid they see me having a vulnerability. So I’m going to try this surgery even though inside I’m terrified and I might make mistakes, and you probably will make mistakes, and the patient’s going to be under anesthesia longer. You’re not going to understand the shortcuts. And perhaps there’s going to be even complications, God forbid, but they might be. So both of those scenarios perfectionists can lean to. But if you notice, those are extremes.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.

Dr. Natalie Marks:
What we want to think about is how can I take fear, which fear is such a innate and sort of natural survival instinct we all have, but we don’t want to be guided by it. I work with a life coach, and she gave me this amazing sort of imagery of how to keep my fear in check. And in my head I have a boardroom, and I’m sitting at the head of the table and I have all my emotions sitting in their chairs. And every emotion that I have when I’m thinking about a decision has a voice including fear. But fear can have that voice and then I can say, “Okay, fear, I’ve heard you, but I’m going to take the consensus and figure out what my view is.”
And so when you have a situation like that, instead we’d love to encourage and hopefully teach and mentor the hybrid model, which is, “Okay, I hear you fear. Never done this before. I get that. That’s noted. That’s needed.” We have to have some of that healthy sort of wary optimism.
But I also heard that in that bravery of saying, “I’m going to try it,” you probably need a little bit of help. So let’s take the cautious nature, but let’s take the bravery and let’s meet in the middle. Let’s ask someone for help. Let’s go in for guidance. Let’s take a little bit of extra study. Let’s take a course, but let’s find that healthy goal of helping that patient but also having that self achievement without the worry you’re going to fail or without even trying. And so that’s what I mean by around our patients. We can either not help them at all or we can be too bold because we don’t want to show vulnerability. And I think that’s one of the keys of perfectionist is they’re so scared… again, I’m speaking as a recovering one… so scared to let somebody see you fail most of all yourself. Even though that often doesn’t happen.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I like this a lot. I was talking just a couple of days ago with Dr. Ivan Zack, and so he’s the CEO at Galaxy Vet, and just a genuinely neat, interesting guy. And he said, I’ve never heard it bluntly, but he said, “Perfectionism is fear.” And he said, “That’s what it is.” And now that you’re talking about fear… And I sat with that a little bit and said, “Is that really true? I hear what he’s saying, but is that true?” And then as you’re saying, “Well, there’s really two different paths, but they’re both fear driven.” I go, “Oh, that’s sort of starting to square up.” Do you generally agree with that assessment?

Dr. Natalie Marks:
I do. If you think about if this is relating to you, if you’re sitting there going, this is me, this is me, if you think about how perfectionism guides you… And let’s take another aspect, let’s say with your team. So say you are a leader in your practice in some regard, whether management or a peer leader or a champion for some aspect, and you’re tasked with a project that you have never done or is quite large or means stepping into a whole nother realm that maybe you failed at before even. Perfectionists, again, tend to go to extremes.
They tend to, and I think I wrote in my article about silent expectations. They often feel like if I have this expectation that this project has to be perfect, then I’m going to not really tell people around me what I need them to do and help me with because I don’t want to be bossy. I don’t want to come across as taking over because I have that fear of being looked at that way. But also then I’m never clear. I don’t give expectations of what our goals are. And then when someone presents me with something they’ve done for this project, then there’s inherent disappointment which often in body language is communicated to the team member, which then of course creates this conflict.
So to your point, led by fear in both scenarios instead of finding that middle ground of saying, “I understand I’m me and I understand you’re you. And for this project, our expectations are such. And so I want to discuss with you, same way we do shared decision making in the exam room, I want to discuss with you, this is what I want out of this project, but what do you want out of this project and how do we find that shared goal together so that expectations are out, they’re on the table, we know exactly what they are, we hold ourselves accountable for our roles and then we regroup.”
I didn’t do that as a young owner. I didn’t want to be that person because especially I think a lot of them are the associates, which I was, that then become owners and you’re working with the same people but in a different role, and you do not want to be looked at as, if I can just say it, a bitch the that just bought the practice. So you come out there and you are just like, “Well, whatever you think you can do,” but that never ends well. But that stems from this perfectionistic tendency of I expect here, and I assume everybody else thinks they should be up here, but that’s not the case and nor is this case healthy. So we have to sort of bring down, yeah,

Dr. Andy Roark:
Is it perfectionism kind of getting trapped in two spaces? Do you think it’s perfectionism of the job has to be done perfectly and I don’t want to make other people feel micromanaged and I want to be the cool boss and I don’t want to be the boss that people don’t want to work for. And so then you’re completely stuck at that point because you’re like, “It has to be perfect, but I don’t want to really communicate my expectations because then I will not be this other part of perfection.” It doesn’t seem like there’s any way out of that if you set yourself up that way.

Dr. Natalie Marks:
Yes, and that’s the key is that… I wrote this article because as I was reflecting on my first several months of ownership, I was thinking if I was mentoring people, which I do, what advice would I give them now as these young owners, whether they’re in sort of a corporate partnership or they’re independent, but whatever that is, if they are in this role, what is a better way to start? And again, I don’t like to look back on regret. I like to look at everything in life as a learning opportunity. And so I think this is just a way for us to think about how can we set ourselves up, especially to improve work culture, because that’s really where this is stemming from. Every person, especially perfectionists, they feel very, very nervous about someone else seeing a flaw, because to them a flaw creates extreme anxiety.
And I think we all know that. Even though many of us have failed, if we look back in life, we failed. Sometimes we ignore the failure. Sometimes we are embarrassed about the failure. We do come back, but many of us don’t go back in the same way or don’t even go back to that same experience because it’s so traumatic for a perfectionist. However, if we reframe that and say, how much could someone learn from you being vulnerable enough and brave enough? Those two can go together. That’s the thing. We don’t often think that bravery and vulnerability are together. We often think vulnerability is a weakness. It is a strength. So if you are brave and vulnerable in the same time as a practice leader and demonstrate, not be embarrassed, but just demonstrate the humility of a flaw or we’ll say a perceived failure, because often it isn’t. Often what we perceive as a failure is a minor blip in the road, but to a perfectionist, it’s a catastrophe.
But then show how we learn together. You misquoted a client, how do we learn from that experience? What process can we create so it’s better next time? Something happened in a surgery, no one’s perfect. How do we learn from that experience? How do we teach someone not to do the same thing and then get that personal reward out of mentorship? So I think it’s all about reframing it and understanding that, again, a brave vulnerability is I think how I choose to lead as I move forward, is to say it takes a lot to show somebody that I messed up. It takes a lot to admit a mistake, especially as a perfectionist, but the reward that you get from that vulnerability is actually so much more bucket filling than we realize.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I love that you say that. And having that behavior modeled, that is something I feel like I’ve seen a lot more in the last say 10 years than in 10 years before that. And I had a couple of mentors. So I’m a Florida grad, and Uncle Mikey as we call him, Dr. Michael Scher was at Florida. That guy was absolutely brilliant, absolutely brilliant. But he would talk in rounds about his pile of bones, he’d be like, “Yeah, I remember him. I missed that one on my pile of bones.” And I remember just, I liked him so much in the time, but for someone who’s a bonafide… And maybe you would say, “He’s such a bonafide genius, no one’s questioning his competence.” But I thought that was such wonderful behavior and philosophy to say, “Well, I’ll tell you about how I messed this one up.” And it made an impression on me to have this person who I just respected so much being willing to say, “Well, I’ve made these mistakes.”
Hey guys, I just want to jump in real quick and let you know about some great continuing education I have coming your way. Guys, I’ve partnered with Nationwide to put together a series of webinars that are a hundred percent free to you. They have Ray-CE, they are good to go, and they are going to be, first of all, just genuinely entertaining and fascinating. The first thing I got coming for you is on November the 14th with my good friend Dr. Emily Tincher. She’s been on the podcast a number of times. I love having her here. She’s such a fun, interesting person who’s a deep thinker. And so anyway, she is doing a webinar called Clinical Empathy, the Exam Room Skill that Can Transform Your Team. And I’ve had Emily on the podcast before talking about clinical empathy.
This is a really good skill building webinar. This is great for your support staff as well as your doctors, but your team leads especially, but your technicians, your assistants, your CSRs. All of this, it’s such a great communication content. I think you’re going to really like it. So anyway, that is on November the 14th. It is at 3:00 PM eastern, noon Pacific.
And then the last one in the series is on December 13th. It is with Dr. Simon Platt. It is called Head Cases, a Spectrum of Care approach to neurology in general practice. So if you’re a neurology buff, if you like seizures, not like seizures, if you like knowing about seizures, if you like a neurophysical exam tips, tricks and hacks, things like that, this is going to be a great webinar. So again, this is on December 13th. It’s at 1:00 PM Eastern. That’s 10:00 AM Pacific Time. Gang, I would love to see you there. Links to all this stuff in the show notes. Go ahead and grab a spot. I’ll see you there. Let’s get back into this episode.
I was having a conversation with my team, and this comes from a practice manager named Maria Pirita, who I work with who’s amazing, but she’s one of the most optimistic, positive people, can do people I meet. And her life philosophy as she told it to me was, “How hard can it be?” And I’m like, that’s such a wonderful… So that surgery, she would look at the surgery and go, “How hard can it be?” I just think, how refreshing is that? How wonderful would it be to have that be at least one of the driving voices in your mind of, other vets do it. I’ve done a lot of surgery. How hard can it be? And I love how you put it. I love your sort of board of directors where I’m just like, I’m not saying this is the defining voice, but it’s one of the voices. And I think a lot of us have lost touch with that how hard can it be voice?

Dr. Natalie Marks:
I love that too. And I think that speaks to, and again, we’re sort of this underlying tenet of fear is that a lot of us go into… And let’s just even take practice ownership. We’ve been talking about it as an example. A lot of people look at practice ownership. And maybe if they allowed themselves, again, I call that daring release because it’s not easy. It’s not easy to release that sort of… It’s almost like a body suit. It’s this control and sort of this safety in a way of sitting in this space of perfectionism. But when you let that go, and it can be slowly at points and starting with baby steps, but you let that go and you actually look at yourself and say, “What do I want? What do I want right now out of life?” And if that’s to you, it’s like, I want to be a practice owner. And then that ugly fear that’s sitting on your shoulder goes, “You can’t do that. Are you crazy? That’s insane, blah, blah, blah.”
You have to listen to it, but you don’t have to follow it. And that’s important I think, because we don’t want to get rid of all of our fear. Fear is needed in small… Otherwise, fear would say, “I’ve got a cliff. I could just walk off. I can fly.” Fear is needed, but fear also is, if we think about where that started, it was because when we were living in caves and there’s a saber-tooth tiger around the corner, fear kept us in the cave and away from threats. And it’s still there, but we have a much better way of controlling it. And how hard can it be? And so the other thing I think that has been really helpful as I’ve been working on this journey of releasing perfectionism is exactly what you mentioned, which is surrounding yourself with people who think about the world differently. Perfectionists tend to want to stay around perfectionists because it’s like safety in numbers. It also feels better for someone to say, “Oh yeah, totally. I agree with you a hundred percent.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. It validates what you’re doing and how you see it. And it validates your fear as well. They’re like, “Oh yeah, I would never let someone else do that.” And you go, “Okay, good. I feel good about this.”

Dr. Natalie Marks:
And then you’re like, “Of course I knew it. I was perfect,” and it’s just sort of this vicious cycle that you again trapped and you can’t get out of. But when you allow yourself to be surrounded by people who have different ways of looking at the world, have not necessarily struggled with the challenge of perfectionism, but strive for excellence, that healthy hybrid form, it challenges you to think about what if I did look at it that way? Or what if I did take a step back? What I just saw is a massive mistake. Maria might’ve been like, “That’s nothing. What’s going on? Why are you thinking that way?”
And the more that you allow yourself to internalize those other comments, the more you can validate that you know what, that was a little minor mistake and everybody makes them, and I’m going to move on, instead of internalizing that and having it stay with you for days and weeks and affecting other parts of your life. And I know that I definitely did that as a younger associate, and I would let a case just linger and fester for a long, long time instead of surrounding myself with people who could allow me to think differently, but also being brave enough to say, “Yeah, I made that mistake. I can’t believe I did that, but I did do it. Help me get through it.”
Because we get embarrassed and we just sort of wallow in this alone. And being alone in perfectionism is awful, absolutely awful because not only do you feel alone, but there is nobody there… Again, I’m going to just keep using Maria… I hope I get to meet her someday… being that beacon of light that says, how hard can it be? It was one mistake. You quoted the client $450 instead of $500. Yes, the client’s response was as such, but it’s not that you’re the worst person. Let’s just think about a different way to diffuse a client next time you’re on a call.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I love it. Natalie, was there a turning point for you? Was there something that made you stop and sort of assess? Because you clearly thought a lot about this. And you say sometimes you have a before version of yourself and an after version of yourself. What was it that sort of made you stop and take stock?

Dr. Natalie Marks:
Yeah, it was probably one of the hardest days of my veterinary career, and it was actually, we had been doing, I was a practice owner, we were doing reviews. And we had of course our team review us, myself and two partners. And I had set myself up in the safe space of perfectionism of saying, “Oh, well, look at all this great stuff that’s coming back. You’re a wonderful mentor. You teach us, you do rounds with us,” and all this stuff. And then all of a sudden, I had three comments from newer team members who said, “You’re really intimidating and unapproachable.” And I’d never really had that direct feedback before, especially from a position of leadership.
And if I thought about it in the moment, certainly now as I reflect, of course I have many different feelings on it, but in the moment, I remember hearing that from my senior partner, delivered in a way that I think if I had delivered that now would be different, but sort of just this very direct, almost like a brick hit me. You’re pretty intimidating and really unapproachable, and they don’t really feel like they can come to you. In that moment, I know I went home, I didn’t eat for two days. I had stress colitis. I’m thinking, how do I even go on? You start to ruminate and go into this spiral of, I must be the worst practice owner anyone’s ever had. Oh my gosh, if people think of this here, do my friends think I’m that way and they just don’t tell me? Do my kids think I’m that way? And you go into this really dark place.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.

Dr. Natalie Marks:
And my best friend at that moment said to me, “You’ve got two choices. That’s what you got here. You can sit here and continue to wallow,” because it had been days of me really being in this dark place, “continue to wallow, and you are going to lose everything you worked for.” Because practice ownership at that point had been my veterinary goal and I’d finally achieved it, “And you could lose everything. Or you can take this and you can say you don’t want to be looked at that way because the way you’re acting, it sounds like you don’t. And you can be super brave and sit down with those three people and get feedback on what they are seeing because you obviously aren’t seeing it. And it’s going to take strength and it may even go down a little bit more before you go up, but you’re going to go back up.”
And I thought it took a lot of guts for me to sit down with those people because they did give me a lot of feedback that I wasn’t necessarily expecting or even in the moment wanting. But I wrote it all down and I sat with it. And I said, “You know what? This is probably the bravest thing that I’ve ever done for myself, but it’s also the bravest thing you’ve ever done because they definitely didn’t need to give me that feedback.” But I realized that’s not the leader I want to be. And so it took a while though to tease out why was I looked at that way. And that’s where I came kind of to those silent expectations. That was a big part of it for me is working on projects with team members and not giving them transparency and not showing my weaknesses, realizing that instead of them looking at them as weaknesses, they would realize that I’m human too. It humanizes leaders to be that way, and perfectionists just don’t see that in the moment.

Dr. Andy Roark:
No, I love that. Thank you for telling that story. And again, I resonate with that so hard. I know exactly how you feel because you want to be the best boss and you want to be the best manager and the best doctor. And then when you get hit with feedback like that, sometimes it’s really hard to let it go, if that’s what you really care about.
The way I came into thinking about perfectionism just for myself is very much… I ended up in sort of the same place as you. At some point you just get tired of getting trapped again and again. And ultimately, you have to pick your poison. And I think your friend was so spot on. You can just continue to do this or you can decide that you’re going to try to make some changes. But those are your only two options. Keep doing what you’re doing or do something different. Anyway, I love that you shared that. I love this conversation so much. Dr. Natalie Marks, you are absolutely amazing. Thank you for being here. Where can people find you online? You are doing so much. I love your column in Today’s Veterinary Business. Where else can people find you and follow you?

Dr. Natalie Marks:
Yeah, I do a lot on LinkedIn. I’m certainly doing a lot educating. My website is marksdvmconsulting.com if people want to check out a lot of the articles and blogs and where I’ll be next. But I’m certainly around and I really am on Facebook and Instagram too. But I love, just like you, I love connecting with colleagues, and I think this issue is one that has sort of remained behind the screen and behind that big curtain for a long time. But I think the more that people talk about this and realize there’s a huge community of recovering perfectionists out there that have been where you are. And if you’re feeling this way, don’t feel like this is the end, that I’m a perfectionist, it’s ingrained in me, and I will never be able to change. Small steps make a big difference.
And also, one last thing I would say is you need to recognize the joy along the journey. We’re so committed to, it’s got to be if we don’t hit the ultimate goal, the only way we can really find joy is the end result. Only for a second, because then we got to move on. It sounds so trite, but stop and smell the roses and the little, little pieces along the way because that’s where we find purpose and meaning. And often that’s even more rewarding than the end of the journey.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh man, you’re speaking to my soul. Anyway, we could have a whole other conversation about that.

Dr. Natalie Marks:
We certainly could.

Dr. Andy Roark:
We’re going to stop here, but I have lived that reality so much. And I’ve come to the same place as you. You’ve just got to let some of it go. You got to stop and smell the roses. Thank you so much for being here. Guys, thanks for tuning in, and everybody take care of yourselves. All right? And that’s it. That’s what I got for you guys. I hope you enjoyed it. I hope you took something out of it. Dr. Natalie Marks, thank you so much for being here. She’s absolutely fantastic. Gang, take care of yourselves. Be well. I’ll talk to you later on.