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Articles, Videos, & Training on Pets & Veterinary Medicine

Andy Roark DVM MS

Eventually, the Numbers Have to Work

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I was talking to a 4th-year veterinary student recently, and he was telling me about the starting salaries his friends were signing on for with their first jobs. Figures in the $150,000 range were not uncommon. [I’ve heard anecdotally about salaries hitting $200,000 for new grads in some metropolitan areas]. This may not sound like a shocking amount of money for a veterinarian to make in a year, but we’re talking about graduates who have zero experience working as doctors and who presumably would like some support and mentorship from their fellow clinicians as they grow.

A few weeks ago, one of my friends who owns a veterinary practice mentioned to me her frustration about not being able to afford to hire a new graduate veterinarian. She said “I know practices are throwing a lot of money at new grads, and there’s no way I can match it. I don’t know how I’m going to hire now or in the future.” I have heard this concern voiced many times in the last few years.

We are living through a period of unprecedented change in our profession. Never before has money flowed into veterinary medicine the way it is coming in now, and that money is making a lot of things quite wonky. I think a lot of people are starting to believe that this “magical money” will become the new normal in our industry and that the old rules of economics have gone out the window for good. Well, at the risk of being the child who points out the emperor having no clothes, I think it’s important to state the truth that seems to be getting lost: Eventually, the numbers have to work.

Business is challenging… but it’s not complicated. You have to spend money to make money. Ultimately, you need to make more money than you spend. If you do this, you get to keep going. If you do not, you go out of business. Sometimes companies are able to go a LONG time without making more than they spend, but eventually… the numbers have to work.

I do not blame any veterinarian for being smart and negotiating when it comes to his or her salary. What I’m about to say is not a condemnation of anyone. In fact, I respect people who are willing to see opportunities in a time of change and take them. That said, the flow of money into our profession is not charity. It’s an investment, and the people behind it intend to get a nice ROI on their money.

In the last few years, we have seen businesses that were willing to spend tons of cash to buy up practices. Now those practices are willing to spend tons of cash to staff the practices they bought. These decisions are not being made for any reason other than the belief in an even greater upside in the coming years. One way or another, the wild spending phase we are seeing is going to end and the “where’s our return on investment?” phase will begin.

When that happens, veterinarians are going to be asked to account for the salaries they have agreed to. The strings in our contracts will be pulled tight. After all, there is no world where a venture capitalist is going to lose money paying a veterinarian’s salary over the long term and be fine with it. As the “where’s our return on investment?” phase approaches, I think it’s important to remind both veterinarians and practice leaders of a few things:

  1. If it looks too good to be true, it probably is — Be wary of any agreement that doesn’t seem to make sense for both parties, even if you appear to be benefiting.
  2. Money is important, but so are other things — Workplace culture, developmental opportunities, and work-life balance all matter… a lot.
  3. Times change — This is a once-in-a-lifetime period of change in the profession. Don’t expect it to last much longer.

To my new graduate friend: I hope you’ll find a job that offers you a good salary which you will be able to grow to support. More importantly, I hope you will end up in a place that fills your cup, appreciates you, and develops you to be the person and doctor that you aspire to be.

To my practice owner friend: I hope you hang in there and continue to do all you can to make your practice a great place to work and visit. I hope you recognize all that you would have to offer the right young doctor, and that you keep pushing to make your practice one that can support new doctors and staff members going forward. I have faith that the right person will eventually cross your path. 

It’s an exciting time to be in veterinary medicine, and there are so many opportunities coming from the radical changes in our industry. Whether you are thrilled about the opportunities being offered or terrified of the shifting landscape, I hope you’ll try to keep at least this one thing in mind: Eventually, the numbers have to work.

The Olympics are Good for Vet Medicine

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I don’t fall in love with the Olympics every four years because the games showcase famous athletes at the height of their careers. I swoon for the regular folks who step forward out of obscurity and shine. It’s the people who could live in our neighborhoods, shop next to us in the grocery store, and bring their pets into our clinics that hold me in rapt attention. In these athletes, I see people in my community… and I see people at their best. 

Did you know that Morelle McCane, the US boxer, funded her trip to the Olympics by working as a birthday party clown, daycare supervisor, and mailroom worker? Team USA canoeist and gold medalist Nevin Harrison had to put her education at San Diego State University on hold so she could train but she kept her part-time job working at a bar. And let’s not forget the now mega-famous college student Stephen Nedoroscik (aka Pommel Horse Guy) who showed up in Paris to do just one gymnastics event… and COOKED. I cheered my cheeks off for that guy even though I had never seen him before in my life.

It’s not just the athletes who shine during the games either. When Maggie Steffens, three-time gold medalist and captain of the USA’s Olympic women’s water polo team, posted on social media about how she and others on her team were working two or three jobs to be able to support themselves, the legendary hype man Flavor Flav decided to sponsor the team! He said he is a “girl dad and supporter of all women’s sports” and he wants to “have their backs.” I did not have Flavor Flav bringing a tear to my eye on my 2024 bingo card.

The superstars we all know are impressive, and I wouldn’t want to take anything away from them and their amazing accomplishments. For me, however, it’s the joyfully crying families in the stands that grab me. It’s the babies wearing ear protection, the beaming fiances with mascara running down their faces, and the mothers who (for some reason) are wearing heart rate monitors so we can see them hitting 160+ bpm while their grown children are tearing down the home stretch. It’s the hugs and tears… the respect and sportsmanship. 

The Olympics are magical because they have the power to make us feel connected to the athletes (and the families) who go there. They remind us that we are all capable of incredible things and make us believe it could be, in some alternate universe, us out there. The games show us the greatest athletes in the world and remind us that they are people just like we are. In this way, the Olympics unite us.

So how is this good for vet medicine? 

One of the hardest parts of veterinary medicine is deciding day after day to assume the best about people. It’s a challenge to see ourselves in the people who are having their worst day ever. It takes a toll to work with people who are rude, angry, ashamed, dismissive, or afraid. It becomes easy to harden our hearts, roll our eyes, and decide that we just don’t like humans.

Veterinary medicine has an unfortunate habit of showing us people at their worst. The Olympics are good for us because they show us people at their best. The games remind us that the people who bring their pets into our clinics may be capable of amazing things. They may be overcoming great obstacles, chasing a dream, working multiple jobs, developing talents we’d never guess, or supporting a growing family or aging parents. Yes, the humans in front of us may be struggling right now, but we share their humanity.

The Olympics are good for veterinary medicine because they can lift up the human side of the human-animal bond and remind us that our work helping families is as meaningful as helping their animal companions. Yes, the Olympics may come with an extra serving of cheese these days, but they are still magical if we choose to let them be so.

The Seduction of Punishment in Animal Training

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Veterinary behaviorist Dr. Christopher Pachel joins the podcast to discuss the contentious debate over punishment in animal training. On this week’s episode of the Cone of Shame Veterinary Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and Dr. Pachel dive into the controversy surrounding positive reinforcement versus aversive methods. Dr. Pachel breaks down the science behind training techniques, discussing the immediacy, consistency, and efficacy of animal training and why balanced training might not be the best approach. They explore the psychological impacts on pets and the real-world application of these methods. This episode is packed with insights and practical advice for anyone involved in animal training. Let’s get into it!

You can also listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, Soundcloud, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts!

LINKS

Dr. Chris Pachel: www.drpachel.com

Instinct Dog Behavior & Training: https://www.instinctdogtraining.com/

Dr. Andy Roark Exam Room Communication Tool Box Team Training Course: https://drandyroark.com/on-demand-staff-training/

Dr. Andy Roark Charming the Angry Client Team Training Course: https://drandyroark.com/charming-the-angry-client/

Dr. Andy Roark Swag: drandyroark.com/shop

All Links: linktr.ee/DrAndyRoark

ABOUT OUR GUEST

Dr. Chris Pachel is a board-certified veterinary behaviorist and is the owner and lead clinician at the Animal Behavior Clinic in Portland, Oregon. Dr. Pachel lectures extensively worldwide, teaches courses at multiple veterinary schools in the United States, and has authored numerous articles and book chapters for veterinarians and pet owners. He is a sought-after expert witness for legal cases and serves on the Editorial Advisory Board for dvm360. He is also a Vice-president of Veterinary Behavior for Instinct Dog Behavior and Training, as well as co-owner of Instinct Portland, which opened in the fall of 2020.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Andy Roark: Welcome everybody to the Cone of Shame veterinary podcast. I am your host, Dr. Andy Roark. Guys, I got a great one for you today. I am here with veterinary behaviorist, Dr. Chris Pachel, and we are talking about the great debate in animal training right now, which is what he calls the seduction of punishment.

We just start off talking about the world seems to have gotten more extreme, and people have become a bit more tribal maybe, about their beliefs, and the battle between people who think that negative reinforcement or punishment makes sense in training programs against people who say we should be either solely or primarily positive reinforcement based. It’s pretty hot right now.

And so we start to wade into that, which I want to, I want to learn more about the balance training. I want to learn about what is this, where does this come from? Help me understand the, , and Chris does a wonderful job of kind of saying, you know, this is what they call it balance training. This is what balance training sort of, puts forward and, and this is what we agree on, this is what we don’t agree on.

Anyway, it’s a really great episode if you are at all interested in behavior. You’re gonna love it. Let’s get into it.

Kelsey Beth Carpenter: (singing) This is your show. We’re glad you’re here. We want to help you in your veterinary career. Welcome to the Cone of Shame with Dr. Andy Roark. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Christopher Pachel. How are you?

Dr. Chris Pachel: I am doing fantastic, sir. Thanks for having me on today.

Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, my, my pleasure. I, I have so loved having you on the past one of my favorite episodes with you was about two dogs who live in my neighborhood who have big feelings. And I think of you twice a day when I walk my dog past the yard with big feelings. That was just such a good episode. It was so much insight.

And I just, it was just really, I just, I always take things away from our conversations. I, I need your help today. I’ve got, so, so, It’s a little bit tricky interview for me to do, so let me, let me sort of tell you why. I am very much in the pro positive reinforcement training camp, and I know that you are as well.

And, I still get questions about why no negative reinforcement, or how do you feel about these things? And, and I want to have really good answers that don’t feel moral, or judgy, or like, you just don’t, you, you just never, a shock collar ooh, shock. Saying shock collar ooh, it doesn’t, change people’s minds, you know what I mean?

And it doesn’t, it doesn’t meet them where they are. And so I want to ask you, because my impression is that there is still quite a debate about punishment and using punishment in in animal training. And I would like to talk to you about why, sort of why that is, and then sort of ask some questions that I hear about.

Well, why shouldn’t we? You know, we put kids in timeout. Why shouldn’t we have some sort of a, you know, we have a carrot and a stick. Why shouldn’t we have some sort of consequence? And so anyway, can we just start there? And so, first of all, can you validate the scenery? Is there still a debate about punishment in animal training?

Or is, am I just kind of making this up?

Dr. Chris Pachel: No, you’re absolutely on point there, Andy. There is such an incredible debate and I would actually argue that in some ways paralleling some other things within our day to day lives, I would say the divide between the extremes is actually probably greater and more divisive now than I’ve ever seen it within my career.

So, We’ve got a lot of very firmly entrenched belief systems about what we should or should not be doing with dogs and cats and horses and all of the other species that we train. And very little active conversation between differing viewpoints. And so it’s a very sort of polarizing conversation right now.

And so the opportunity to have a conversation like this where we’re truly saying, what’s the deal here? Big picture and at the practical level is really an awesome opportunity for me to have.

Dr. Andy Roark: Well, it breaks my heart that you say that and it totally tracks with what we see in the world, right? It’s just we see more and more extreme views and more sort of tribalism and people who go nope, this is what I’m gonna believe and it’s it’s it’s sad, but it it I can’t say it’s unexpected. When you say it that way, I go, yeah, that, that fits.

Okay. Well, open, open this position or open this conversation up for me here, Chris. And like, state for me the sort of the two sides as you see them, is it just two sides or are there a bunch of different belief systems? Who are the players when we talk about belief systems around animal training and punishment?

Dr. Chris Pachel: Yeah, I would say the two biggest sort of camps that exist in the animal training world would be those who seem to skew more towards positive reinforcement as a sole focus or primary focus. We’re basically saying reinforcement, reinforcement, reinforcement, manage the environment, but overall reinforce the behaviors you’re looking for.

The animals will offer more of those and so on.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yep.

Dr. Chris Pachel: And then you’ve got a camp that’s a bit more, I think the most common language would be a balanced trainer, which is basically saying, I get that, I will use reinforcement that matters to the animal, but I’m also not going to shy away from the stick. You know, there’s going to be an intentional inclusion of corrective consequences.

And typically the way we look at it more from a scientific lens would be, are we leaning more into reinforcement and strengthening of behaviors? Or are we using aversives in some way that carries a greater risk of poisoning the experience for the animal and we’re leveraging aversives within our training more so than the reinforcement or at least as much so as the reinforcement.

So depending on whether you’re coming at it from the layperson’s angle or whether you’re coming at it more from the scientific literature and that dialogue, the, the labels change a little bit, but generally speaking, those are the two camps that we’re talking about.

Dr. Andy Roark: Okay, so when we talk about, I mean, when we talk about, you know, sole primary positive focus, I think most of us kind of know what that is. We’re talking a lot about praise, we’re talking a lot about treats, we’re talking about trying to do things that are fun and rewarding for the pets. And probably a mixture of sort of training, training techniques around that, and maybe you might be able to flesh that out a little bit.

I think what I’d like. What we talk about the balance training and you talk about behaviors or techniques that might be aversive, what are we talking about? The ones that I’ve, I mean, I still hear people talking about the electronic, the shock collars or the prong collars, things like that. Is that kind of the main thing when we talk about dogs or dogs and cats or are there other sort of techniques that are, that are, I don’t know, negative consequences that, that people are using?

Dr. Chris Pachel: Yeah, those are certainly one, one of the ones that kind of get the most publicity or the most airtime, so to speak. And we’re talking about shock collars or prong collars or chain collars or things like that. But truthfully, anything that is essentially adding an aversive as a consequence to a behavior, would fit into that camp.

So we’re thinking about things like somebody using a squirt bottle for the cat that jumps up onto the countertop or the owner who in response to a dog jumping up and the visitors, they yell, no, as the correction for that. Or we’re walking down the street and the dog is forging or pulling ahead and you see them sort of jerking or tugging on the collar as a way of creating an aversive consequence, presumably as a way to decrease the likelihood of that particular behavior happening again in the future.

Dr. Andy Roark: Okay. Talk to me. So we’ve all seen that. Again, the, the, the, the can of coins, the squirt bottle, you know, for, for cats, the, the loud no or hand clapping when, when a dog jumps up on. We’ve all seen that. And when people lay it out and say, Oh, well, you have to disrupt the behavior. I’m trying to get the pet’s attention.

I want to scare them so that they can’t they, they don’t do this behavior again. The logic at least makes sense. I’m not talking about from a cruelty standpoint, but I go, okay. I hear that. And when people say, well, if my child runs up and punches someone in the stomach, I’m going to say no. And they’re going to have a similar experience.

Break, break that down for me a little bit there. Are there flaws in that logic?

Dr. Chris Pachel: There are, there’s a couple of them. And, and so I think about it often in my framework, at least I often refer to it as the seduction of punishment. And what I mean by that is if we’re seeing an unwanted behavior, whether that’s a child darting toward the street or a dog jumping up on a person or a cat scratching the furniture, those are unwanted behaviors.

And so our first instinct as, as a human, as a sort of a rational being is to say, well, I want to stop that. So when the, when the animal does that, it seems completely and totally logical and even intuitive that we would say, yeah, when they do that, I’m going to create an unpleasant experience. So the next time around, they’ll think about what they’ve done and they’ll choose to do that differently.

Right? All of that makes complete and total sense. And you and I could go down a laundry list of all of the things that we’ve done in our own lives, that had an unpleasant outcome. And so we chose to do things differently the next time around, right? So the logic is solid and that punishment absolutely can work.

Now, that’s the piece where we then start to say, and what are the caveats that need to be in place when and if we’re going down that pathway? And I typically break this down with the acronym ICE. Or I, C and E,

Those stand for immediacy, consistency and efficacy. That basically means that if I am going to intentionally use a correction, and for anybody listening right here, I’m in, in going through this and the logic and unpacking this, I’m not advocating for this as an intervention.

I’m not saying that we should do this, but in order to understand the pros and cons and the logic here, we have to unpack this, right? So the immediacy is basically the timing element. Now, if we’re thinking about the cat jumping on the counter, for example, the timing of when a correction would occur would be essentially right as the cat is sort of getting into that pre jump crouch, for example, right as the moment where their brain is saying, what I’m about to do next is this right at the moment of the initiation of behavior.

That’s generally where a correction is going to be most easily interpreted by the learner and associated with that particular behavior. So that’s the immediacy and the timing piece. It’s not when the cat walks into the kitchen. It’s not when they’ve been lying on top of the counter for 15 minutes. It’s truly at the initiation of the behavior.

So that’s number one. Second

Dr. Andy Roark: It’s not the, it’s not when the owner becomes frustrated. 

Dr. Chris Pachel: Exactly. Or even when the becomes aware.

Dr. Andy Roark: I was, I, when I saw it, I immediately got really mad. That’s not the immediacy we’re talking about. Okay.

Dr. Chris Pachel: It’s, it’s not, but that’s, that’s such an important point. We’ll come back to that too, because that is, that’s where we can get off track. The consistency piece is also relevant from the perspective of the animal, so that as close to one to one as possible, when the behavior occurs, that unpleasant consequence immediately follows.

And so we have a connection. Now, again, this is a place where owners may say, well, I only correct them. I only reach for the squirt bottle when I see them on the counter. And I’m not talking about the consistency of owner behavior. I’m talking about the consistency from the animal’s perspective.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.

Dr. Chris Pachel: That’s what really matters.

And we’ll come back to that piece when we put these all together in just a second. But from the learner’s perspective, is there essentially a one to one correlation between the behavior and a consequence? And then lastly, the efficacy piece. If a punishment or an aversive consequence is truly functioning as a punishment rather than just an interruptive stimulus as an attention getter, we should actually see that the behavior is less likely to happen again in the future under similar circumstances.

If it’s not doing that, that aversive consequence is actually not functioning as a punishment. It’s only functioning as an interrupter, which means we’re going to have to keep interrupting the behavior because we’re not actually having an impact in the future. Now, the tricky piece in putting all of these things together is if we are able to utilize those rules of immediacy, consistency and efficacy, meaning we change the behavior in just a small handful or maybe even one or two repetitions, then punishment is a reliable way to change behavior.

But even in those cases where it works, what we are evoking within the brain and the way that the animal processes information is we’re actually triggering an avoidance or an escape response. That I’m going to try to avoid that thing that was unpleasant. So it actually evokes a bit of that limbic system fight flight motivation more so than any other activation within the brain because it’s creating that avoidance because it’s unpleasant to the animal.

There is an element of stress that is inherently included within that even when it works and even when it works as intended.

Dr. Andy Roark: Right.

Dr. Chris Pachel: And because most people in a real world scenario are going to struggle with timing consistency or they get into that loop where they’re continuing to reprimand, tug the leash, squirt with water, whatever the case may be.

We now have an animal who’s experiencing an unpleasant, maybe even pain or stress inducing stimulus. In a way that’s actually not predictable, controllable, or avoidable based on their understanding of that relationship or lack of relationship between the punishment and the consequence. And when we talk about that, an unpleasant experience over which we have no understanding or control, that’s the recipe for situational or generalized anxiety.

It just is. In comparison to more of a reinforcement based strategy that’s invoking more of the the neurotransmitters. We’re targeting dopamine and the seeking systems and the animal who’s trying harder and harder to do it even more right, if you will, as opposed to invoking that fear response or avoidance response of trying to avoid doing it wrong.

 Hey guys, are you a team lead who has not yet registered for the Uncharted Team Leads Summit? if you are, if you’re a head technician, head CSR or something like that. You need to be at the Team Leads Summit. It is a one day virtual event. It is taking place on September the 18th and early bird pricing is about to end that’s right. 

The early bird pricing ends on August 16th. You should be there. You should be growing your career. You should be stretching and expanding your skills. You should be getting better at managing and leading other people so that you enjoy your work more and your patients get better outcomes and your team runs more smoothly. And your practice culture is better. 

All those things come from you being comfortable, confident well-trained able to handle the stresses that are put on team leads. Cause guys, the team lead role is just growing in importance. 

I’ll be there. I’ve got a session is called the Jedi Mind Trick how to get doctors to do what you want. Sarah Parsons is there talking about boosting morale. Maria Pirita is doing Conflict Management, Mastering Mediation. 

So you know that there’s going to be times that you are going to have to get in between two people that you lead that are not getting along. Let’s make you a better mediator. Let me give you the basics so that, you know, sometimes. They’re not able to sort it out on their own and we have to help make that happen. To keep the team functioning at a high level. 

Let’s let’s get some skills guys. Tyler Grogan and Kelsey Carpenter are going to be doing Becoming the Coach, Not the Referee. As you can tell, this program is absolutely jam packed with useful sessions for team leads. Grab it before early bird registration ends on August the 16th, and we will see you on September the 18th link in the show notes. 

I hope to see you there. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Do you think, Chris, that if someone’s using a training approach that, that leverages aversives, is the pet that they’re working with, dog, cat, whatever are they, would you say that, that the consequences of this, you know, this sort of this sort of stress response is that uniform across the patients being trained or is it sort of a case by case basis?

I think what I’m asking is if you have a trainer and they’re out there and they’re leveraging what they call a balanced training technique Are they? instilling a sense of fear and stress into every patient they work with? Or is it 90 percent of the patients really have no ill effects, but 10%, you know, are, are internalizing this in a substantial way.

So help me, help me see that.

Dr. Chris Pachel: It’s such a great question and it does vary a lot based on the skill of the individual using the technique. And also the level of sensitivity of the animal. An animal who is inherently more anxiety prone, who needs a greater degree of predictability in order to feel safe in their world, is going to be more sensitive to any sort of training method that’s going to be variable in the way that it’s applied.

So there’s a lot of individual variability. And one of the challenges that we really find is, you know, especially from the advocates of, of balanced training who, who really say, no, no, no, it’s a short term stress. The animal will undoubtedly experience stress, but it’s short term. They learned the rule and we don’t see that ongoing stress, you know, for, for the duration of, of training or, or ongoing.

That does happen. It’s absolutely the case. I’ve, you know, I’ve witnessed that sort of training where we see a short term stress response and then it does seem like the animal learns the rule and we don’t see that as an ongoing welfare concern. However, you can’t predict how that individual animal is going to respond until you subject them to those conditions.

And if they have that sensitizing response, we can’t just say, oops, I made a mistake. Let me go back and try that again. Let’s wipe the slate clean and start over. It doesn’t work that way. That experience is now a part of that animal’s learning history, and I can’t erase it. And so even when people say, no, no, no, it absolutely can work.

I agree with them. Yes, it can. And across the board, it carries a greater level of risk of that fallout of coercion or punishment or the use of aversives compared to other methodology. And science is really clear on that. It’s not about my values or my judgment or my preference. The scientific literature is clear that when we are using aversives as a form of training, the animal experiences a greater level of stress as a part of that training compared to other methods.

Dr. Andy Roark: That totally makes sense. And also, I appreciate you sort of saying that, that balanced trainers would own this and say, yes, it does cause stress, but only for the short term. That, that, that at least helps me understand that position a lot more clearly. So it’s not that we’re, we’re pretending this isn’t true.

It’s like, okay, but we believe it’s short term. Is, has there been any published research or anything, Chris, on efficacy of training techniques? Is it that maybe a balance tech balance approach, does it generate a faster results, but it has this specific downside, or is there really not been shown any difference in a balance training approach versus a solely or predominantly positive approach?

Dr. Chris Pachel: Yeah, the efficacy piece is a really good detail to look at because if it was true that yeah, there’s a short term stressor, there’s a slightly greater risk, but man, the results are so off the charts better. Then maybe it’s worth it. Just like when we’re thinking about reaching for medications or prescriptions or treatments, if there’s a side effect, but dang, if it works, we’re launching forward in terms of what happens next, then maybe that’s a calculated risk.

The research actually doesn’t support that there’s a significant benefit of that increased risk. There may be individual circumstances where yes, and again, in some cases we may be able to achieve a faster result, or when our goal is actually conditioning an avoidance response or a fear response, of course, we’re going to be able to do that more quickly and more reliably, utilizing something that the animal finds unpleasant.

But in terms of looking at foundational training, whether we’re looking at behavior modification, even including the aggression cases that we see, there is no evidence to suggest consistently that taking a punishment or balanced approach is likely to be more effective. And again, the risk is greater.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, Chris, this has been fantastic. You are a veterinary behaviorist in Portland, Oregon. You are at the Animal Behavior Clinic and Instinct Dog Training. Where can people find you online if they’d like to learn more from you or see what you’re up to?

Dr. Chris Pachel: Yeah, the best place to look to get access to all of those things that I do, including some other projects that I’m involved with is drPachel.com, so d r p a c h e l. com. And on that main landing page, you’ll be able to link to all of the projects that I’m affiliated with, including the media page with podcast recordings like this one and other webinars and other conversations.

Dr. Andy Roark: Well, this has just been excellent. I really appreciate you talking through with you. I took a lot away from this. It’s really, it’s, I don’t know, it helps me so much to understand the debate that’s there. Thanks so much for being here. Guys, thanks for tuning in, everybody. Take care of yourselves, gang.

And that’s what I got for you. Thanks to Chris Pachel for being here. Thanks to you for being here. Thanks to me for being here. I’m just gonna pat myself on the back because if I don’t, no one will. Anyway, that’s what, that’s what I got to say for today. Take care of yourselves, everybody. Be well. I’ll talk to you later on. 

Did You Realize Life Required This Much Engagement? I Didn’t.

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I don’t know where I got the idea that the point of younger life was to set yourself up so that older life ran on autopilot, but I was pretty sure this was how things worked. It’s not that I didn’t think life would be challenging after the age of 40. It’s just that I thought the important decisions would already be made and thus I would be able to just kind of go through the motions without stressing too much. When I was in my 20s, it certainly looked like that’s what middle-aged people I knew were doing.

At some level, my understanding was that if I got the education, spouse, children, house, pet(s), etc then I would kind of be set until it was time to downsize and move into a retirement community. Then I could REALLY just go with the flow. Dinner at the cafeteria, scheduled social time, a coach/helper for bathing… Talk about coasting!

Anyway, this anticipated period of going with the flow has not happened at all. It turns out that, regardless of what we do or accomplish, life is always going to require our full attention. Whether it’s navigating the US healthcare system, dealing with a complete change in your workplace management structure, or battling a local homeowners’ association, our full and active engagement in this life appears to be both mandatory and continuous.

I’ll be honest here. When I graduated from veterinary school, I knew I would need to keep up with advances in medicine to stay competent at my job as a veterinarian. That didn’t seem like such a big investment on my part in exchange for having a livelihood that I enjoyed and found meaningful. Again, I thought I’d kind of done the hard part and, after getting some experience, I would be able to kind of just… keep on keeping on.

Today, I am not just keeping up with new advances in medicine (and boy howdy there are a lot of them!). I’m also trying to:

  • Leverage new AI technology to help make up for being shorthanded
  • Advise veterinarians on how to advocate for themselves to the venture capitalists who want a 10x return on their investment
  • Talk to clients who have shot right past learning from Dr. Google and gone on to passionately educate themselves with 40-second TikTok animal influencer videos
  • Raise wages for support staff while keeping pet care affordable

Remember when the answer to the question of “What do I do if I’m shorthanded” was simply “hire someone?” What a simpler time. I just assumed things would kind of stay like that.

I’m not saying all of this to complain. I’m honestly not. I love vet medicine and the life it’s given me. I genuinely find the challenges I listed above to be interesting and worthy of our attention. I just didn’t think the profession (and life outside it) would require my full attentiveness every day after 15 years of practice. I suspect I was not alone in this delusion.

I’m pointing all of this out now for two reasons. The first is that I know I’m not the only person who has been secretly wondering when the cruise control part of life would be starting. If you have had these thoughts and decided that you must be doing something wrong since you still can’t take your hands off the wheel, I want to tell you that you are not. Practice (and life) are never going to be “hands off,” even if other people make it look that way. You are probably doing just fine and should be proud of yourself for how you are handling everything. You are not failing because things have not gotten easy. You are making your way through an interesting life, and interesting lives are apparently averse to letting us relax for very long.

The second reason I’m bringing up the idea that life was supposed to get easier is because the expectations we set for ourselves matter. Nothing makes a hectic day in the clinic more draining than going in and hoping for an empty schedule. The same is true in all aspects of our lives. If we anticipate being challenged and engaged, the days fly by and we feel proud of what we have accomplished. When we instead think we are supposed to be relaxing, hectic days feel like a slap in the face.

The lesson for me has been to give up the false idea that life is a big climb and then a steady downhill toward the retirement home. Most of us mid-to-late career people are working as hard and making as many challenging choices as we ever have, and that’s not going to change. It turns out we chose the path of an interesting life, and that means a life requiring our active engagement day after day.

We might as well get excited about doing a job (and having a life) that keeps us on our toes because that, it seems, is what we are in for.

Awkward Conversations on Cremation and After-Care

by

Dr. Mary Gardner returns for a poignant discussion on pet aftercare and communicating it with clients.. Dr. Gardner, co-founder of Lap of Love Veterinary Hospice and an expert in end-of-life care, dives into the nuances of pet cremation and aftercare services, elucidating common misconceptions and concerns that pet owners and veterinary professionals have. The conversation dives deep into the importance of understanding and choosing the right aftercare options, encouraging veterinary professionals to visit crematories to ensure they meet standards before recommending them to pet owners.

You can also listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, Soundcloud, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts!

LINKS

Dr. Mary Gardner: https://www.drmarygardner.com/

Dr. Mary Gardner Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drmarygardner/

Dr. Know-It-All Card Game: https://drandyroark.com/in-the-know/

Dr. Andy Roark Exam Room Communication Tool Box Team Training Course: https://drandyroark.com/on-demand-staff-training/

Dr. Andy Roark Charming the Angry Client Team Training Course: https://drandyroark.com/charming-the-angry-client/

Dr. Andy Roark Swag: drandyroark.com/shop

All Links: linktr.ee/DrAndyRoark

ABOUT OUR GUEST

There is nothing better to Dr. Gardner than a dog with a grey muzzle or skinny old cat! Her professional goal is to increase awareness and medical care for the geriatric veterinary patient and to help make the final life stage to be as peaceful as possible, surrounded with dignity and support for all involved.

A University of Florida graduate (AND ANDY’S CLASSMATE!), she discovered her niche in end-of-life care and is the co-founder and CIO of Lap of Love which has over 350 veterinarians around the country dedicated to veterinary hospice and euthanasia in the home.

Dr. Gardner is co-author of the textbook “The Treatment and Care of the Veterinary Patient”, co-author of a children’s activity book focused on saying goodbye to a dog called “Forever Friend”, and the author of a book dedicated to pet owners “It’s Never Long Enough: A practical guide to caring for your geriatric dog”. Dr. Gardner also won VMX Small Animal Speaker of the year in 2020!”, Dr. Andy Roark is a practicing veterinarian in Greenville SC and the founder of the Uncharted Veterinary Conference. He has received the NAVC Practice Management Speaker of the Year Award three times, the WVC Practice Management Educator of the Year Award, the Outstanding Young Alumni Award from the University of Florida’s College of Veterinary Medicine, and the Veterinarian of the Year Award from the South Carolina Association of Veterinarians.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Andy Roark: Welcome everybody to the Cone of Shame veterinary podcast. I am your host, Dr. Andrew Roark. I’m here with my dear, dear good friend, Dr. Mary Gardner today. If you have not heard of Dr. Mary Gardner episode you’re in for a treat. I just, I love having her on the podcast. She’s so interesting. She’s so insightful.

She’s so funny. We went to vet school together. You’ll, you’ll be able to tell that. She’s amazing. Co founder of lap of love at hospitals. She owns a crematorium and so that’s sort of where this episode comes from. We talked about aftercare in the crematorium world and and and things like that And so it’s a really it’s a really interesting conversation a lot of things.

I didn’t know and I feel like you. It’s one of those things where you’re like, I should have asked that question. Why haven’t I asked that question before? That’s kind of the vibe on this podcast. And then I ended up asking her a question at the end about end of life care, that from a previous conversation that’s just kind of nagged at me ever since we had it.

And when we go back, we have a really good conversation about about the questions that we ask pet owners during the euthanasia process. So anyway, this is a euthanasia episode , I hope you’re going to enjoy it. I love this episode. Let’s get into it.

Kelsey Beth Carpenter: (singing) This is your show. We’re glad you’re here. We want to help you in your veterinary career. Welcome to the Cone of Shame with Dr. Andy Roark. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Mary Gardner! How are you, my friend? 

Dr. Mary Gardner: I’m good, Andy.

Dr. Andy Roark: It’s good to have you back here. One of my favorite people to talk to.

Dr. Mary Gardner: I– listen, I think you’re probably the podcast I’ve been on the most.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, yeah, I just, yeah. That’s not a quality metric, I’m very well aware. It’s like, you’re the podcast that has invited me the most times. 

Dr. Mary Gardner: I don’t know who’s that, what’s that telling about me or you. I don’t know.

Dr. Andy Roark: I think he’s exactly right. I’m not, I have to, I’m going to have to sit and parse apart what that means for both, for both of us. I’ll tell you what it does mean.

It means I enjoy talking to you very much. That’s, that’s without a doubt. For those who don’t know you, and I can’t believe people don’t know you, but for those who don’t know you, you are the co-founder of Lap of Love Veterinary Hospice. You are an international lecturer. You have not one, but Two outstanding books for pet owners on senior years and end of life care.

One for dogs, one for cats. I had you on the podcast. We talked about your books when they came out. Yeah, you are just genuinely a wonderful, thoughtful, insightful person. And I was reaching out to you recently, I was like, what are you fired up to talk about? And you were saying you were sort of telling me about some of the questions you get around cremation, because you run a crematory.

But you asked me questions about cremation and afterlife– aftercare.

Dr. Mary Gardner: No, not after life, after care. Listen, you asked me what I’m fired up about.

Dr. Andy Roark: No, I love it.

Dr. Mary Gardner: Get it? The pun?

Dr. Andy Roark: Fired up about, okay, gotcha, okay, the crematory, okay. Okay. It’s gonna be that kind of episode.

Dr. Mary Gardner: Well, listen, I own a crematory, so I got to be a little weird.

Dr. Andy Roark: It’s gonna be yeah, I already titled this episode awkward conversations around cremation and after so I just I had a feeling that’s where it would go.

Dr. Mary Gardner: I love it.

Dr. Andy Roark: Talk, talk, talk to me a bit about conversations around cremation aftercare. So you again like you Co-founded Lap of Love Veterinary Hospice, and you own a crematorium, and so you are very tapped in to this ritual here.

Talk, talk to me about, is there anything in this area that you have been surprised about? About questions that you get? What, what do, what do people not know about sort of aftercare that you feel like they probably should?

Dr. Mary Gardner: Oh, this is a good question. What I find interesting is that a lot of people don’t understand more than just cremation. We’re such a death adverse society and then definitely even more body care adverse.

Like they don’t want to know about it. But a lot of people don’t understand the difference, the true difference between a private and an individual and a communal. And then they think we’re burning pets and I do aquamation. So then they’re like, are you melting pets? And nobody really knows and nobody they all want to know, but they’re a little scared to ask

Dr. Andy Roark: Do they ask? Do they want to know?

Dr. Mary Gardner: Well, hold on. Who? The families? Not necessarily.

Dr. Andy Roark: That’s what I was thinking. Okay.

Dr. Mary Gardner: The families, no, but, but, but veterinarians, technicians, they, I don’t know if they want to know either, but then they’re like, wow, I had no idea when I tell them these things. Cause I’ve, I’ve lectured on it and they’re like, I didn’t know. And I want people to go visit their crematory.

If you’re going to own a clinic or you’re going to, you know, be a leader in a clinic or do an in-home euthanasia, you should go visit that crematory and see how they, how they track the pets, how they have, you know, quality control measures. What do they do with the ashes afterwards? Because I can, I’ve got some thoughts on that.

So, if you would allow your own pet to be handled by that crematory, that’s a good measuring stick. If you wouldn’t and you’re scared, find another crematory.

Dr. Andy Roark: Okay. So, talk to me about this because I’ve never done this. I want to unpack this a little bit. So I, let’s just say, you know, I’ve, I’ve got a crematorium that we’ve been using at the practice. What is it? And I listened to Mary Gardner and I’m like, you know what? I would like to kind of see how the sausage is made, if you will.

And so. I’m gonna, I’m gonna go there. What, what am I looking for? Talk to me a little bit about, about sort of what a visit to the crematory would look like, because I, I imagine me as like the most incompetent OSHA inspector ever, you know what I mean? Who just, who shows up, doesn’t know what he’s looking for, doesn’t know what he’s looking at.

Dr. Mary Gardner: No comes in with flip flops Like yeah, I’d like…

Dr. Andy Roark: Help me understand what I’m doing here.

Dr. Mary Gardner: Okay. So first of all, some crematories may not be open to the public and I’m air quoting here, right? So they may not be open to the public and that I understand why some may not be but I also then question and they may just be completely wholesale.

So they’re only doing business to business. So, they’re only you know servicing clinics, but for instance, in my crematory, we also not only do we service clinics, but we also service families that their pet died, you know, at home and they want to, you know, they woke up and their pet has gone as they come directly to us.

So, if you’re, if your clinic or sorry, your crematory allows you to go visit, show up at any time to, you know, that’s, we have an open door policy. You don’t have to make an appointment. You know, I may not want you visiting the back at that moment if we’ve got pets out and it may be a little bit shocking to some people.

You know, we’re in the, we’re in the vet space so we have seen pets that are not alive, but not everybody has. But anyway, so the first thing I want to do is how do they answer their phones? Are they polite? Are they, are they lovely? Are they compassionate? Do they sound like they’ve got a mouthful of marbles?

Because your families may be calling them or they’ll look it up and they’ll say, hey Who do you use? Oh, you use rainbow bridge crematory, then they might call up. So, So how are they with customer service? Because and and how you know, how they handle everything is a reflection of how they handle the pet and how is their lobby because if you’ve got a family that that you know you’re you’re taking care of a golden retriever andy and the the goldens got osteosarcoma and and they and the dog passes on a sunday and your clinic’s closed. And they’re going to have to, and what are they going to do with that pet?

They could bring it to an emergency clinic, maybe, or they can bring it directly to the crematory. So you should know this. What are the hours of operation of your crematory? Can it, do they have pickup services? So let’s say now the family has to bring Rocky to the crematory on Sunday. How is their lobby?

You know, it, does it look nice or does it look like a mass production site? Because you know, they’re going to be doing, you know, hundreds of pets a month, you know, cremation. So you’re going to see a lot, but you don’t want the lobby to look like that. So how’s the lobby? How are they, you know, what is their hours, things like that.

So then if they’re willing to show you, and also their insurance, you know, cause there is stuff going on in the back that they may not have insurance to cover strangers or whatever, but most of the time you could go to the, into the back. So you’re going to look, how do they store the pets? How do they track the pets?

So when they come into the building, how, how will I know if Rocky is going through the process appropriately? How do they take the paw prints? How do they do the fur clipping? How do they make sure that Rocky’s paw print doesn’t go into, you know, Misty the cat’s bag. And that’s going to be totally two different paw prints.

How are they handling that pet? Are they just tossing them into the machine? The big thing is, is ensuring that you’ve, you’re tracking the pet correctly. And then, and then you’re going to ask like, what do they do with the pet afterwards if it’s a, if it’s a communal. And so, and that’s a whole other, that’s a whole other topic.

But the big thing is tracking and, and ask them what happens if a mistake is made. and I will tell you for us, what happens when a mistake is made, cause we’ve had mistakes. And that’s the first thing. Is that a crematory better say they’ve had a mistake and not hiding that because it’s, it’s rare.

You’re going to be doing tens of thousands of pets. And not have somebody didn’t follow a process, right? Like, listen, there’s, there’s, there’s doors coming off of airplanes now, right? Like stuff happens even with the best of checklists. And, and for us at my crematory we, we will refund that family absolute your cost.

So even though I, you know, I only charge you $90, but you charge the family $250. We’ll refund the family $250. We’ll get the memorial items. We’re going to ask them to send a picture. We’re going to get an etching done. Like we go above and beyond because we know how horrible that is. And we want to protect you as the clinic from being the bad guy, because that’s who that you, we are a reflection of you.

And if we screw up, you guys picked the wrong crematory. So we take it on. We call that family. We don’t ask the receptionist to call and say, sorry, we misplaced your ashes. You know, like that’s just horrible. And it’s, it’s only happened to us in six years, three times. And, and, and we know that what happened and we fixed it and it hasn’t happened in a long time.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. That, that makes sense. I actually had that thought when we were sort of talking earlier, you know? I mean, it happens at, it happens at vet clinics where you know, the box gets checked on the paperwork, but the tag doesn’t get done correctly. It’s just, human error is, is just real. 

Dr. Mary Gardner: It’s real. I’m going to say something too. And so, and so many people blame a crematory for doing things, but we as clinicians and technicians and the staff have to make sure that it’s done correctly at the clinic. And I’m telling you, it is a shock to see what some clinics do. So my, my brother runs the crematory that I own Monarch in South, in South Florida.

And he sometimes calls me to ask what should he do? Because he has, he has arrived to clinics And there’s maybe 10 bags in their freezer, not identified at all. He’s arrived. Yeah. And so then they’re scrambling. And he’s like, well, if you put the wrong tag on Misty versus Rusty and we do the pop, then it’s going to be looking like we did it wrong.

Right? So we also ask for the, the the breed, the color, the age, like all these things, because when we’re opening the bag, we want to make sure that we’re looking at a black cat, not an orange cat. Right.

Dr. Andy Roark: That totally makes sense. Yeah.

Dr. Mary Gardner: And then there was another time. It was so sad. He’s like, Mary, they didn’t call us to come pick up.

They had, you know, a lot of influx of animals. So they put a pet on top of the freezer, not inside the freezer. And and by the time we got that pet, it was not in a state that we could make memorial items. We couldn’t do paw prints and stuff like that. So you, we could have told, we would have come and picked it.

But they’re not even thinking. They’re like, well, what do you want us to do? So it starts with us on how we treat at the clinic, sorry, not the cream at the clinic of how we treat that pet and make sure they’re identified immediately and check the right boxes.

Dr. Andy Roark: That’s wow. That, that, that totally makes sense. Let’s, let’s start, let’s start at the clinic and kind of work backwards a little bit. When, so in your experience with Lap of Love, and you lecture on euthanasia and end of life care, how do you talk about cremation and sort of uh, aftercare options? What do you say to pet owners?

Dr. Mary Gardner: Okay. So when they’re calling in, obviously they know what they’re calling for. And so, and when I lecture, I, I, I give, I give really good examples. So when they call in, they probably haven’t thought about it. Like they may have, but they don’t know. They don’t know what the burial options are. So we’ll typically ask.

Have you thought about what you want to do with Rusty’s body afterwards? And because we shouldn’t assume anything and I’ll usually ask an audience, like who here doesn’t want their ashes back for their pet? And there’s always a handful of people that don’t want it. And so then I’ll say, Oh, what? Do you not love your pet?

You know, because we have such a stigma that getting ashes back equals love your pet more. And it doesn’t. It just means you’re not attached to the, to the ashes. Right?

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I have I have ashes in a closet in my house and I ask my every time I find them. I’m like Why do I why do I have that like again? It doesn’t I don’t know maybe again. Everybody’s different I’m not saying other people should feel differently, but I was like I just I don’t display them.

It makes sad. 

Dr. Mary Gardner: I’ve got whole urns. It makes me sad. Like, I think sometimes it’s a bridge during your grieving process to have those things back. And then after 10 years, you may be like, I’m going to go to the beach and scatter them, right? Or the mountains. But, but it doesn’t mean you love your pet less if you don’t want those ashes.

So when you are on the tel, on the phone and the family, and you’re asking, what have you thought about what you want to do with Rusty afterwards? And they’re like, Oh, I want to get him cremated. Then what most people say is, do you want his ashes back or not? And just by saying not is a negative word. So instead of saying that, why don’t we say, Would you like Rusty’s ashes back or would you prefer the crematory spread them for you?

Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, I like it. Yeah

Dr. Mary Gardner: Right? Something as simple as that because the first wasn’t wrong. Would you like the ashes back or not? Right? No, but the other way is a lot gentler and it also gives them permission that it’s okay to not get them back. Like, don’t feel obligated to get them back. And so that’s step one. And then if they go into more questions, your, your staff needs to know exactly what’s what to, what to say, what not to say little things like, well, when is the crematory going to come pick up?

How long is he going to stay there in your clinic? Or is it going to come the next day? Like, cause people will ask all these things. They ask us a lot because we’re taking the pet with us in our car. And you know, are you going to go now to the crematory? And we don’t, we go to our homes. We, we all have freezers in our, in our homes that we put them in.

But, but you know, they’ll, and never lie, never say that you’re going to go, I’m dropping them off at the crematory. Cause then they’re going to call the crematory. Okay. And say, Oh, is Rocky there? And then the crematory is gonna be like, Rocky who?

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. Yeah. 

Dr. Mary Gardner: Starting with the phone call is important to, and then, and I don’t also upsell urns.

I don’t feel because in humans, in humans, you know, we die naturally. And a week later you’re planned or that during that, you know, days later, you’re planning the funeral, you’re planning urn, you’re planning a, a basket and stuff like that. So when we do a euthanasia, it’s. It’s, it’s, it’s the death, it’s the, it’s the funeral, it’s everything all at once.

And to, and to upsell an urn, I don’t like. So I like to pick a really nice urn, don’t, as a clinic, don’t just buy it. Pick the boring box, you know, like pick a nice one. That’s that’s gonna be you know that they can have and then Afterwards if a family wants a different urn, I always just go on Etsy.

There’s so many options out there. It’s amazing I can’t carry enough to show you all the cool options even at my crematory we don’t carry urns because there’s thousands.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.

Dr. Mary Gardner: and they’re awesome. 

Dr. Andy Roark: So if, you know, if, if, if I’m talking to the pet owner, I’m like, Oh, you know, would you, would you like the ashes back or would you like to have the crematory spread them for you? The first question I has, where are they going to spread them? 

Dr. Mary Gardner: Very good question.

Dr. Andy Roark: I don’t think I could, I don’t think I could accurately, immediately answer that question in all honesty.

Dr. Mary Gardner: So, a lot will say, Oh, we have a memorial garden that we spread them out. Which, or they have acres of land that they spread them on. So, which may be true. But, we have so much ashes that we have to spread per month. It would kill any garden…

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, it seems, it seems amazing.

Dr. Mary Gardner: in six months I could probably fill my bedroom full of ashes.

Like So you’re not placing that on a memorial garden? And I’m a small crematory, right? I do, we do 800 a month, so, and about 30% are, or 40% are communal. So for, for what we do at Mar, we actually spread them out to sea. So we go three miles out and we spread them out to sea. And and so I think it’s just good to know what they do now.

They may just take a teaspoon and, and put it in the memorial garden. Some may, let’s just be honest, they may put them in the garbage.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah?

Dr. Mary Gardner: How do you say that then, right?

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah! I Yeah, I think

Dr. Mary Gardner: I don’t know.

Dr. Andy Roark: We have to figure out our phrasing of that for that one.

Dr. Mary Gardner: We do. Oh my

Dr. Andy Roark: Again, I don’t and again I don’t want to. I don’t want to mislead people either. You know, it’s it’s this is yeah, this is these are these are questions. I have not asked that that question.

Dr. Mary Gardner: And it sucks sometimes if that’s, so maybe that’s not the best option. I don’t know. Well, there was one time I was lecturing and it was in, it was in Texas. And this girl, she raised her hand and she’s like, well we have on our sheet like it’s either private or disposal and I’m like, no, no, no, don’t say disposal.

Like, don’t, don’t say that. And so she’s like, no, no, but that’s what it is. I’m like, no, no, it’s a communal. And then she’s like, no, no, it’s actually disposal. I’m like, I’m sorry, tell me the words that you’re speaking here. And so she says the crematory, there’s only two options and it’s a private cremation or they, they dump the body, the whole into the landfill.

Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, no

Dr. Mary Gardner: There is no communal at all, which is totally legal. They, they, they throw the body, you know, into the, into the landfills. And this is somewhere like, and she’s like, and that’s two hours away. It’s like Boofoo, Texas. And I’m like, I don’t know how to make that better. I don’t have the answer for that. I don’t know what to say.

But I just said, it’s still aftercare. Like, you know, or would, but sometimes you just can’t make things pretty.

Dr. Andy Roark: You can’t sugarcoat it. Yeah, I mean..

Dr. Mary Gardner: You can’t sugar coat that. I’m still working on that one. So don’t say disposal though. Yeah. Or would you like, yeah. Anyway. And think about in third, 30 years ago, there was no pet crematories.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.

Dr. Mary Gardner: That’s what they did.

Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, yeah. Oh totally. Oh, yeah, I I I had this, I had this mentor, I had this mentor, and it was like, you know, I was a young, young vet, and I worked for this guy, and he was great, he was a great guy. And we would, you know, you know, I always love it when the older vets tell the younger vets about mistakes they made in their career. I think that’s so healthy.

Dr. Mary Gardner: Yeah. Totally.

Dr. Andy Roark: It’s so helpful for everybody and for the profession is just to sort of share that, share that back. And but he talked about it’s back in the day and he put a horse to sleep and they took it to the dump And he did not use enough pentobarbital and the horse woke up And was running around the dump and they had to go to the dump and and get the get the horse.

Dr. Mary Gardner: Oh my God.

Dr. Andy Roark: I’ve never I’ve never forgotten the phone call from the dump about you need to come get this horse. And so, anyway, when you say that, if part of me is like, I can’t believe that that’s, that’s what happened, but yeah, I, I, I know it is. 

Dr. Mary Gardner: I know. And you know, I’ve heard, it’s crazy. One time I heard a story, I was doing euthanasia and the family was like, Oh, this is so much better than last time. I’m like, Oh really? What happened last time? And yeah, they felt like I could tell they wanted to share. And they said, Oh, the veterinarian put my dog in a black bag and shucked it over his shoulder and carried him out.

I’m like, like Santa Claus. And they said, yeah. And I’m like, when was that? Andy? I thought they were talking 30 years

Dr. Andy Roark: 30 years ago. Yeah.

Dr. Mary Gardner: Two years ago. I’m like, what? Yeah. Like it’s surprising. And then one, another time, my brother, he was helping a mobile vet and she’s like a general mobile vet. And she’s like, Oh, can you come help?

Because it’s a great dane. So he came in and her and her tech to the house. Her and the technician were carrying the Great Dane out by its legs, hanging in the head was flopped out, carrying outside the house. They didn’t even think about this is, this is the last two years. And so he’s like, stop, let me go get my stretcher.

And so then he went in with this and they’re like, Oh, we didn’t even think about a stretcher. This is like now it happens. It’s crazy. And he’s like, oh, please here’s our stretcher and you know, it’s 70 bucks Like it’s so worth it.

Dr. Andy Roark: I mean, yeah. Oh, absolutely. But again, to to be, to, you know, to be kind to our people, which is, is, it’s, if no one ever shows you the stretcher, you know, I, I, I, you know, like, again, I, I know it’s, it seems ridiculous, but if you’ve never thought about it and you’ve got this pet and you’re like, I guess I’ll take the bottom side and you’ll take the top side, you know, like, it, it’s I, I.

Dr. Mary Gardner: It’s true. I don’t mean to bash talk.

Dr. Andy Roark: but but that’s that’s the most terrifying thing to me in aftercare is when you’re not thinking and then all of a sudden you can see yourself from the outside and you’re like, oh no

Dr. Mary Gardner: no, right, right. You know what?

Dr. Andy Roark: like that’s that stuff gives me nightmares

Dr. Mary Gardner: Totally. I remember I was speaking for a conference that we, I was in Zion National Park in October and the loveliest gentleman, oh, it’s so good. It was

Dr. Andy Roark: I would totally speak there

Dr. Mary Gardner: Oh my God.

Dr. Andy Roark: Zion, if you’re out there, I’d totally speak at that conference. 

Dr. Mary Gardner: Exactly. Hook me up. Hit me. DM me. So there’s this gentleman comes up afterwards and he’s probably in his late sixties or so.

And he’s, and it’s just the sweetest guy. And sometimes I get a little like, I don’t know, you know, they’ve been in this field longer than us. What am I going to teach them? You know, that kind of thing. Right. And so he’s like, ah, thank you so much. What I’ve realized, and he started to cry. He’s like, I’ve been doing it all wrong.

Dr. Andy Roark: Wow.

Dr. Mary Gardner: And I felt, I’m like, no, no, no, no. Like you just, you didn’t know like that, that it, what you could do. And he was so happy to change a few things. And that was both euthanasia and aftercare and stuff like that. But it was just so, it was sad to see him cry, but lovely that he, that he was humbled by it and could say, thanks for teaching me new stuff.

Dr. Andy Roark: Well, isn’t that, isn’t that the soul that we all want to have, you know, is to, I, I, I want to be the person, you know, in my sixties and seventies, who’s listening to someone who’s got new ideas and going, Oh man. I get that. That’s, that’s better. Or yeah, that’s, that’s better. I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna try that. I think, I think that’s huge.

 Guys, I have got some huge news. My new card game is out. That’s right. If you are a fan of the last card game that me and my team made it was called what’s on my scrubs. You’re going to love our brand new card game. It’s called Dr. Know It All. It is a trivia game meant to be played in teams. 

It’s a mixture of trivia and BS and it is guaranteed to make your team laugh. All of the questions are meant to be challenging for your whole team. 

They are based on the difficulty level of the VTNE exam. So this is the veterinary technician, national examination. It is great to play with your veterinarians. It doesn’t need your veterinarians. It can be toned up and down in difficulty. We have a number of different ways to play the game so that if you have a newer team or a team that is learning we can tone game down very quickly and make it fun and engaging and educational for them. 

And if you have got a bunch of vets that want to go hard in the paint, we can go hard in the paint and it has made the game has made to turn up to that level. It’s really flexible that way. 

it is going to be fun and your people are going to enjoy it. It is made to be played in small teams. That’s the team building part. 

We get people together. It’s just like regular trivia. When you go to the restaurant or the bar and they didn’t have groups and everybody gets some time to quickly figure out what do you think? What’s our answer if it is there in very much that, so it is perfect to be played in five minute bursts. 

You can put it at the beginning of your staff meetings just to make people laugh. You could do a couple of rounds of trivia and then get into your business. Or You can just say, Hey guys, we’re going to have a team meeting. We’re just going to do some trivia. 

We’re going to get some food. We’re going to hang out together. We’re going to laugh together. We’re going to trivia. We’re gonna play some music. We’re gonna do whatever we do. And then everybody’s going to leave with a smile on their face. Guys, I wanted to make that for you. I had such a great time with our first game. 

I think this game is going to be really fantastic. I think people are going to really love it. Head over to drandyroark.com right now to learn all about it and get your copy sent to either you or your practice, Check it out. Let’s get. Get back into this episode. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Let me, I want to shift conversation here a little bit. This is a personal shift for me. You know, we’ve talked many times before, and, and one thing that you said on your previous visits that has sort of stuck with me a little bit and I always think about every time I do a euthanasia I think about it. So, you you and I had talked about having conversations with pet owners who were putting their pets to sleep and you said and I’m sort of paraphrasing but basically you were like You know, they probably don’t Don’t want to talk or or they don’t want to necessarily reminisce about pets. Or they’ve already they’ve been through a lot and and maybe bringing up memories or things is not something that’s beneficial And so I and I really wrestled with that and sat with that in that one of the things that I have seen people really light up about is if if they and again this it’s you have to read the room,

Dr. Mary Gardner: That’s what I was going to say. You got to read a room.

Dr. Andy Roark: But, but some, some people really, because I’m walking, some people really seem to open up that way. And I, so I’ll walk in, and I’ll see someone, and I don’t know them very well. And I feel like this is a really important thing. And I don’t, I don’t want to say, you know, I’m not, I’m not trying to do a ceremony here.

You know, I’m not trying to take, I’m not trying to take the spotlight away from anything. But I, I, I always think to myself, is there something I could say or a question that I could ask that would try to frame this into a happier memory than what it is? And then I sort of hear your voice going, well, you know, they’ve already been through a lot and you’re kind of bringing these things up.

Can you walk me around through this one more time and sort of, sort of help, help me out here?

Dr. Mary Gardner: Okay. I’m, I’m glad you brought this up cause I, cause I want to make sure I like kind of explain myself. Well, I think what I mean by that is, is many people, especially in this awkward moment or stressful moment, and they don’t know what to say. So they ramble and they talk and they ask questions that are not meaningful or like they don’t understand they just they’re scared of silence.

I think that’s there’s it’s silence is okay and I think we’re scared of silence in these awkward moments. So you ramble and that I just want to avoid rambling and read the room. I’m if i’m can barely breathe because i’m sobbing so much crying over my pet don’t ask Like, what’s your favorite memory?

Right? Like, I can’t. If, I tell you, when people say, what’s the number one, you know, thing that’s can make a great Lap of Love vet, right? And they’re like, compassion? I’m like, no. We all have compassion, guys. We’re oozing out of our pores with compassion. It’s knowing how to read a room. Like you gotta know.

And, and I just, so I just want those that find if they’re, when they’re in an awkward situation, they ramble, enjoy the silence a little bit. And then I think my, like, what is your favorite memory? Like if you can, if you can find that space and then, and they might say, I have so many, you know, and that’s, I know me too.

And just, you have to have an organic, natural. I think when, when people know that I’ve done thousands of euthanasias, right, they’re like, Oh, you must not cry anymore, you know, cause you’re so used to it. And I’m like, no, no, no. I definitely cry more now because my medicine and my process is down pat. I could be in the, in a, in a blackout room.

I know every, where my doctor bag is. I could hit any organ. I got it. Like I could do it. The doctor stuff down. So I now focus on the experience and that family and that relationship. And I’m like, you know, he helped you to get like, and I’m hearing their stories and I’m in it and I’m not just asking.

Almost with a void like oh, what’s your favorite moment? Like that’s You have to be behind that question. And that’s, that’s what I mean by that. So I’m glad we brought it up. Cause I hope that’s helpful.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, that, that definitely does help. I, I’ve always, I, I, you, you have such insight and knowledge, and I’ve always, I respect you so much, and you have so much insight in these things, and I just kind of rolled around with that backwards and forwards, and my, my, one of my go to questions is, and again, you read the room, and some people don’t want to talk, and you know, that, that’s sort of it one of my go to questions is, you know, how did, how did Buster come to live with you?

Dr. Mary Gardner: Yeah. If you don’t know them, right?

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, that’s exactly it. How did Buster, how did Buster come into your life? 

Dr. Mary Gardner: To you as a family?

Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, and I’ve heard some great stories. I mean, just great stories. And again, it’s and their, their, their face brightens up because this is the happiest time of the, the pet is arriving and joining the family. And, and it’s, it’s, it’s kind of a guaranteed kind of, kind of, I don’t know, kind of

Dr. Mary Gardner: No, I, I love it. And I think if they’re also struggling with like, or they’re, they’re, they’re standing over Buster and they’re like, I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I, you know, there’s, there’s, there’s, I got to try to shift that a little bit. So I think it’s not, it’s, it’s, it almost does an injustice to that moment for me to say, do this.

Cause you really have to, at that moment, pull out your different, I have a Rolodex of cards of things I’m going to say, things I’m going to do. Right. And. By the way, I have, you know how you said, you like people who admit mistakes. I have, I’ve said stupid things sometimes and I’m like, Oh, I can’t say that again. Right.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.

Dr. Mary Gardner: I’ll joke, like there’ll be a great family and they’ll joke. And I’m like, damn, that was good. But I can never say that again anywhere else. Cause it’ll never have that situation again. 

Dr. Andy Roark: We’ll never land again like that.

Dr. Mary Gardner: I’ve heard my favorite, my, my, one of my worst ones with was this dog. And And so I was talking about the sedation and I was like, Oh, this may sting a little on the way and sort of like a tequila shot.

And they were cool. Oh, wait, hold on. Let me back it up. They were a, a, a row of Harley Davidson’s were out front. It was a clan. So it was a clan of guys with big beards, like ZZ Top bandanas. All that stuff, right? And so I’m like, Oh, so Harley’s the dog’s name. You know, I’m like, it’s going to be like a shot of tequila.

Now I might have assumed I made some assumptions there. Okay. I did. And so afterwards he, and he’s, and he’s holding him and he’s, and he’s rocking back and forth sobbing. And he looks and he says, he was my sobriety dog.

Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, no.

Dr. Mary Gardner: And I’m like, Oh my God, the whole clan was a sobriety clan.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. Oh,

Dr. Mary Gardner: So I like, I didn’t read the room well then

Dr. Andy Roark: No, but yeah, you make, you make an assumption. Yeah,

Dr. Mary Gardner: I made an assumption.

Dr. Andy Roark: You, you do. But so, anyway, we could do a whole other podcast on this. But like, but here’s, but here’s the thing about, about being a vet, right? And I’ve wrestled with this in my career. Not making assumptions about people has a cost as well.

You know what I mean? If you’re like, I’m not going to say anything to you unless I am 100 percent certain of its relevance to you. Do you know what I mean? Then, then it, you’re not going to make that connection. And again, sometimes, again, we want to be smart. Sometimes we sort of try to connect with people.

We have to, we have to have some grace. I think I wouldn’t. I would want, if as the pet owner going in, I would like to work with people who, who try to connect with me. And if they occasionally kind of put their foot in their mouth, I think I would give grace to that over someone who’s like, we’re not gonna talk to this guy because he’s upset and we don’t know him.

And so we’re gonna lean back. And there’s always, there’s just nuance there. And I think. I think it’s so important to give yourself grace as the vet because you get drawn into all kinds of ridiculous situations that you, you never signed up for.

Dr. Mary Gardner: I wish, yeah, you know what? I wish I got graded a little more heavily on my like personal skills because I was not the smartest when it came to didactic stuff. And so I thought when we were in clinics, that’s where I shined. And I think, I think people, people, people appreciate that. And I always say, do not.

Do not make your chase of perfection hurt you, hurt you just being good. Like it’s okay to be really good, but people are chasing perfection and that’s, it’s the enemy of good. And like, trust me, I am hashtag not perfect.

Dr. Andy Roark: I Think you’re pretty pretty freaking great. Dr. Mary Gardner. Thanks for being here today. Where can people follow your adventures and exploits?

Dr. Mary Gardner: Well, if they could just follow me following you, is that Dr. Andy Roark, but

Dr. Andy Roark: Stay stay subscribe to the Cone of Shame Podcast. Apparently.

Dr. Mary Gardner: Right? I’ll be on. No. So Dr. Mary Gardner is, is where you can find me, my website and social media and stuff like that.

Dr. Andy Roark: Awesome. Thanks so much for being here guys. Thanks for tuning in and listen. Take care of yourselves everybody

And that’s what I got guys. Thanks for joining. Thanks Mary Garner for being here. Boy, I just, I enjoy the heck out of her. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell a friend, pass it on, share it to people, write me an honest review wherever you get your podcasts.

That means the world to me. It really does. Anyway, guys, take care of yourselves. I’ll talk to you later. Bye.

When Will We Be Happy Enough?

by

Josh Vaisman joins Dr. Andy Roark on the Cone of Shame Veterinary Podcast to explore the nuanced concept of happiness in the workplace. They delve into the realistic expectations of happiness at work, especially in demanding environments like veterinary practices. Josh emphasizes the balance between striving for employee happiness and acknowledging the inherent challenges of the job. They discuss the pitfalls of solely chasing happiness and the importance of fostering a work environment that values fulfillment and pride over constant joy. This episode offers insightful perspectives for veterinary leaders on setting realistic goals and cultivating a supportive workplace culture.

You can also listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, Soundcloud, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts!

LINKS

Josh Vaisman at Flourish: https://www.flourish.vet/

Uncharted Team Leads Summit: www.unchartedvet.com/tls2024

Dr. Andy Roark Exam Room Communication Tool Box Team Training Course: https://drandyroark.com/on-demand-staff-training/

Dr. Andy Roark Charming the Angry Client Team Training Course: https://drandyroark.com/charming-the-angry-client/

Dr. Andy Roark Swag: drandyroark.com/shop

All Links: linktr.ee/DrAndyRoark

ABOUT OUR GUEST

Josh believes all veterinary professionals deserve to feel fulfilled by their work, each and every day. Through his company, Flourish Veterinary Consulting, he combines more than 20 years of veterinary experience, a master’s in applied Positive Psychology & Coaching Psychology, and education in Positive Leadership and Positive Organizational Scholarship and a passion for guiding leaders to cultivate work environments in which people can thrive.

Fun fact – Josh is also an avid beekeeper who teaches beginning beekeepers how to tend to their buzzing buddies.”, Dr. Andy Roark is a practicing veterinarian in Greenville SC and the founder of the Uncharted Veterinary Conference. He has received the NAVC Practice Management Speaker of the Year Award three times, the WVC Practice Management Educator of the Year Award, the Outstanding Young Alumni Award from the University of Florida’s College of Veterinary Medicine, and the Veterinarian of the Year Award from the South Carolina Association of Veterinarians.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Andy Roark: Welcome everybody to the Cone of Shame veterinary podcast. I am your host Dr. Andy Roark guys, I’m here with my good friend Josh Vaisman. He is, He’s amazing. Josh is a force of nature in the vet industry when it comes to positive workplace psychology. I just I can talk to him forever about what it means to be happy and what the point of all of this work that we do in practice is and you know, I just he always gives me a ton to think about.

He is a former practice owner and manager. He is the Lead Positive Change Agent at Flourish Veterinary Consulting. He is a he is the author of Lead to Thrive, which as I talk about a little bit in this podcast, my team absolutely loves. I love it, too. It’s uh, It’s really a great book.

It’s totally worth your time. It should be on your shelf for sure. Anyway, guys we talked today about how happy is happy enough? We talked about, I want my team to be happier. I want to be happy. Well, how happy do you need to be? And what does that really look like? And what does that even mean? This is a fun episode. I hope you will enjoy it. I hope you’ll get a lot out of it. I just, I really enjoy this conversation. Anyway, guys, let’s get into this episode.

Kelsey Beth Carpenter: (singing) This is your show. We’re glad you’re here. We want to help you in your veterinary career. Welcome to the Cone of Shame with Dr. Andy Roark. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Welcome to the podcast. Josh Vaisman. How are you, my friend?

Josh Vaisman: I’m doing great. Dr. Andy Roark, how are you today?

Dr. Andy Roark: Man, I am great. It is always wonderful to have you here. You know, the first time I had you on the podcast, I told you

I was angry about you being on the podcast, and I was sick of you. Because my team just loves, loves your book. It’s called Lead to Thrive, The Science of Crafting a Positive Veterinary Culture, and it was being, I had read it.

I got, I got an early copy, and I didn’t say a lot about it, I guess, apparently, and then my team just quoted it to me until I couldn’t take it anymore. And that’s when I had you on the podcast. And so, anyway, we have come full circle, and now I sing your praises so the other people are just sick of hearing me talk about how great Josh Vaisman is.

So someone else is now going through the Josh It’s the Josh Vaisman cycle, is when you’re like, I am I like Oh, this is interesting, and then you’re like, I’m sick of hearing about this 

Josh Vaisman: guy.

Sick and dizzy,

Dr. Andy Roark: And then you meet him and you’re like, he’s fantastic. I should evangelize about him to other people. And that’s the Josh Vaisman cycle.

Thank you for, thank you for being here. The last time, the last time you were on the podcast, we were talking, so every time we get together we talk about what, workplace culture. And, and that’s one of the things that I really love. It’s one of the things that you write a lot about. I think it’s why I just, I really enjoy our time together so much.

The question I think I put to you that we didn’t, I can’t remember if we were recording or not, but I put it to you last time we talked, and basically I said to you, how happy is happy enough?

So when we start talking about making a workplace for our people, when we start talking about making a vet practice, we tell people, oh, you know, I want my employees to be happy, or yeah, you know, we want this to be a, we want this to be a great place to work.

And, and I, I hear that, and I am on board with that. Nobody’s, nobody’s anti happy. But at some point, Josh, you go, how happy can you actually be? You know, taking money from clients, and, and cleaning up diarrhea on the treatment room floor. Like, you know what I mean? And like, a lot of this comes down to expectation setting, where if I say, Our goal is for our employees to be happy, for our staff to be happy, for me to be happy.

Am I just setting myself up to these unrealistic expectations? And so let me just kind of start, pause here and sort of put that to you and say, you know, Josh, when you talk about how happy is happy enough, like how happy are we trying to make our teams? Or should we be trying to make our teams?

Josh Vaisman: I love that question. It’s such an important thing for us to explore. You know, Andy, in my in my experience, there’s generally a bell curve on this, but it’s not It’s sort of like a reverse bell curve. There seems to be concentration at the polls. There’s one side of the coin where I run into organizations, veterinary hospitals, practices, companies, where they’re hyper focused on team happiness.

Like that, that is the primary goal. And they’re running themselves literally ragged, trying to create a happy team. And any sign of discontent is so overbearing upon them like, Oh, man, we made them happy 98 percent of the time, but that one day they were unhappy. And so obviously we failed. That’s not sustainable.

And then the other end is like, I remember like very, early on in, in my career at flourish and leading a workshop and talking about workplace wellbeing through the prism of applied positive psychology. And this, this gentleman, it’s like a six hour workshop, right? It’s about halfway through the workshop.

And this guy raises his hand and he owns a small practice with a relatively small team, one or two associates. And he says, you know, Josh, this is all great and dandy, but it’s not my job to make them happy. And, and there’s that, that end of the spectrum too, where they’re like, listen, I pay you to do something.

You do what I pay you to do. And that’s the end of it. I don’t think either of those ends of the spectrum are really healthy or sustainable. I think we got to find something somewhere in between. And I think that. Some of it, honestly for me, really boils down to the language that we choose to describe our goals and aspirations.

I think language really, really matters because language is a way of expressing a mental model. You know, when we use words, we have an image in our mind of what that word means, looks like, feels like, sounds like. And others also have an image in their mind. And sometimes those images align and sometimes they don’t.

But any word is going to solicit that. And when we start talking about things like this is a place where you’re going to be happy, we want to make you happy at work. Our goal as leaders is to create a happy team. That word happy, that has a mental model associated with it. And the reality is that mental model is not achievable.

Dr. Andy Roark: yeah. No, I think, I think you’re, I think you’re spot on. It’s funny. I’ve also had people say, you know, I pay these, I pay these people. And, and again, that is, that is a far, that’s a far end of the spectrum. I will tell you that I I say to owners and managers, you can’t make your team happy. Only, only they can make themselves happy.

And there is, there is truth to that. Now when I say that, I’m talking about external validation. I think a lot of us are external validation junkies,

and we’re like, I’ll know that I’m, that I’m good at my job because the clients will be happy, and the people that work with me will be happy. And I’m like, that’s, that’s not in your power.

We need to find other measures that you can use to decide if you believe you’re good

at your job 

Josh Vaisman: Agree. Totally agree. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Are not meant on the feelings of other people.

Josh Vaisman: you, you used this word, this phrase, external validation, and it, it, it, it sort of sparked a memory in my mind. There’s a. piece of research that was done by Barb Fredrickson, Barb Fredrickson and some of her colleagues where they they essentially, they identify people. One way that you could, you could describe this is folks who are driven by external validation so that, like, I’m here for the party thing, right?

I want to feel good all the time. And then another group of folks who are motivated by internal validation or, or you could say, like, the pursuit of purpose and meaning, right? Like, I want to make sure that I’m contributing in a meaningful way. I’m seeking fulfillment, not necessarily joy and happiness and and then she followed them in the study.

They followed them periodically. They had like a pager and the pager would periodically go off at random times and then they would complete like the PANAS, which is a way to measure positive and negative emotional states. like that. A variety of measures over a period of multiple, multiple weeks. And they found two very interesting things.

Number one, the people who were driven by external validation. So the happiness seekers, if you will, the happiness seekers were actually, I think it was somewhere like 70 to 75 percent more likely to report depressive symptoms and negative emotions because they were I shouldn’t say because it caught correlations, not necessarily causation, but it was correlated with the pursuit of happiness, whereas the people who were pursuing meaningfulness contribution impact that kind of thing, right?

They were significantly less likely to report negative emotional states insignificant, more likely to report positive emotional experiences. But interestingly, it also seemed to have a physiological relationship in that the people who were the happiness pursuers when blood works and when blood samples were taken showed significantly higher levels of Inflammatory markers in their bloodstream to the point where the the authors of the study the authors of the paper said It seems based on our data that the pursuit of happiness is about as good for you as chronic illness.

Dr. Andy Roark: Wow.

Yeah. I, I mean, I, I, I see it. I, I do see it. I think you know, it was pointed out to me years ago that one of the quickest ways to not feel happy is to ask yourself, Do I feel happy right now? 

Josh Vaisman: I feel happy? Yeah.

Dr. Andy Roark: It’s like a, it’s like a trap, it’s like a trap door out of 

happiness.

Josh Vaisman: Yeah. Yeah

Dr. Andy Roark: but yeah, it’s but you’re, but you’re totally right.

It’s, it’s, it’s. It’s so ephemeral. I think you know, it’s funny. I have a good friend. She’s a veterinarian, and she’s a good friend of mine, and we were talking at one point about her husband, and he’s not in vet, medicine, but she said, she sort of revealed a story about their relationship, and she said one of the things that, that it took her a long time to work through within their marriage was that he doesn’t believe that happiness is important. He, she said, well, what, what drives you forward? And he said, I feel satisfied fulfilling my obligations. And, and that was it. And it absolutely shattered her brain that her husband would say, I don’t think being happy is that important. I am, I take pride in fulfilling my obligations.

And I just, that is such a radically different way to think.

Josh Vaisman: Yes yeah

Dr. Andy Roark: But, so, so, so, I, and again, I just, I have, I remember it’s been years since she told me that, and I still just, I think about it. But I, I get it now. At first I was like, I don’t it. I, I get it now. I really do. It’s I go out and I work in my yard. I like, I like to garden. I really like landscaping.

It is June, July in, you know, June, July, summertime in South Carolina. It is hot. And the sun beats huh not fun. There’s no part of rearranging boulders, you know, in the yard and planting them that’s fun. But I get a great sense of pride looking at that wall, you know, that wall.

And, and, and when it’s, and when I’m there and I’m got dirt up to my, to my elbows, I feel good, Josh. Like I do it’s I’m sweaty and it gets in my eyes and I just, I, I, I, I do, I do love, like, it’s just at a deep level, it’s very fulfilling a way that’s not happiness. I wouldn’t call it happiness, but, so when he says, I, I meet my obligations, I go, I, I do, I do get that.

Josh Vaisman: Yeah. No, I think you’re really onto something here. For me, what it, what it, what all of this really boils down to is that I think oftentimes when we’re pursuing this thing of happiness, right? So I’m a, I’m a practice manager and I’m talking about, I just want my team to be happy. What we’re kind of saying is like, we just want our team to feel good.

Like we want our team to feel good and so we think we turn this into like an either or proposition. Like either they feel good and then imply there is all the time or they don’t and I’m failing and so I have to do better to make them feel good. But the reality is is that there’s no such thing as a challenge, stress, stress, adversity or pain free life.

And there is certainly no such thing as a pain free existence in veterinary medicine. The work we do is really hard. It’s incredibly demanding. Sometimes things don’t go well. Sometimes we have to make unbelievably psychologically and emotionally difficult decisions. That’s the reality of our work. And so if the goal in that kind of work is to be happy, we’re going to have moments of happiness.

Absolutely. Every single one of us can point to moments of happiness in our veterinary career. Moments. But they’re never going to be consistent. It’s impossible to make it consistent. However, you said two words that really stood out to me that are consistently achievable. Pride and fulfillment. We can have painful, difficult days that we take pride in.

We can have challenging, stressful days that we find fulfilling. And that’s the interesting reality of the human experience, and I think that’s what we need to set as our goal. We should aspire to that. Let’s create workplaces where people find joy, pride, and fulfillment in their work each and every day.

Not happiness. Happiness is the lagging indicator of those things.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, I you’ve said that before that happiness is a lagging indicator. I think that that’s a really I think that that’s a really good concept. So is it is it as simple as just taking the word happy out of our vocabulary and and talking to our teams about hey I want us to I think this is kind of where where I am as

I talk a lot my team about the impact of the work that we have. Being proud of the work that we do. We do thing at, we do this thing at Uncharted we give a lot of trophies.

Not, not, not literal trophies, but we, we say, Hey, I want to give a trophy to this person. I want to give a trophy to that person. I know it can be kind of, maybe it’s hokey. I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t care. But it comes from this, it comes from this there was, there was a member at Uncharted who came in and did a presentation for us one time, and she was talking about her practice and she, she made the point that, you know, a lot of us don’t.

We’re uncomfortable sitting with victory. We’re uncomfortable being proud of something. We feel like it’s not humble. proud of something that we did. We’re, We’re supposed to, you know, poo poo our successes and go on because that’s the humble thing. 

Mm-Hmm. . 

Josh Vaisman: Mm-Hmm.

Dr. Andy Roark: and she said that she makes a note to herself to hold the trophy, meaning this is the thing that I’m of and I’m, I’m just going to hold it.

and and that really resonated with me and I

know it people on my team because we started talking about, you know I’m just gonna hold the trophy for a moment. You know and we would talk about something that was good or something that we’re proud of. And so now we give each other trophies and we’ll say, you know, I want to give I want to give josh a trophy because you he he did this thing where I saw him do this thing And not about happiness, but it is about being called.

I think it’s probably about appreciation I think try to call is the impact that you made and I think that that has been very free positive for our culture. But I tell you one of the hard things for me was, you know, kind of giving up on this idea. That I was gonna make everybody happy.

Yeah. Yeah.

they’re not unhappy,

Josh Vaisman: Yeah.

Dr. Andy Roark: but that was, that was hard for me.

I, I wanted, I imagined a place where if you put a microphone in front of my, you know, any of my staff and said, Are you happy here? They’ll say, I’m so happy. I imagined that. I don’t think that that’s real. So, I don’t know. Is it as simple as kind of switching, switching that language, switching those goalposts, or is there more to it than that?

Josh Vaisman: I, I think that switching the language or changing the goalpost to use your words is valUable.. I think that we need to be cognizant of the language that we use internally and focus on those things, especially when we’re in a leadership position. Andy, you know better than anybody, when you’re in, when you’re in that position of authority and power, the things that you pay attention to are the things that become the culture, right?

So if you’re talking about, hey, it’s really important to me that we, you know, give each other these trophies and take the time to hold the trophies, guess what happens? You start giving each other trophies and people take the time. So, so as leaders, it starts with us and we have to think about what, what are the things that I’m going to try and pursue here and then apply language and meaning clear, vivid meaning to that language.

Now you can do that. Sometimes you do that on your own.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.

Josh Vaisman: You might, I don’t know, maybe at the end of every day, you might go around and sit down with two or three people on the team and say, Hey, Today was a hard day. There were a lot of patients that came in. We had a couple unexpected, you know, drop offs and there was that emergency that came in over lunch and I know your lunch got cut short.

What worked for you to get through the day and what What helped you find some pride in the work that you did today? Like, if you just ask those questions, you’re choosing that language, and you’re implanting that idea that this is a place where we scan for that. And, and the reality is, is that when people start thinking and talking about those things, the result of that is going to be a, a boost in the neurochemical experience of happiness.

You can also invite your team in on this and say, Hey, listen, you know, I know that for a long time I’ve talked about, like, I want this to be a happy place to work, and I realized that that’s probably not been serving us really well. I’d really like to talk about what would it mean for this to be a fulfilling place to work.

Andy, what does fulfillment sound like to you in the context of your job here? You know, Tess, what does fulfillment sound like to you? Foster that conversation with your team so that collectively you create a shared mental model of what fulfillment looks and sounds and feels like in this building. And then notice it when it comes up.

Look for opportunities to repeat that conversation. That’s really, this, we’re doing that all the time anyway. The thing is, is that we don’t always do these things with intention. We do it out of habit. We default to whatever we’re used to, we’re accustomed to, comes naturally to us, or we’ve experienced in past workplaces.

And then we repeat that cycle. So all I’m asking is, I don’t think this is big profound stuff. Like, I don’t think this is, you know, this kind of culture change is like this big explosive thing that requires 18 months of intensive consulting support. It’s literally just about thinking, I spend my time noticing things here, and responding to what I notice.

What’s the thing that I’m going to choose to notice and respond to today? And then go do that. And if you choose that intelligently and repeat it over time, it’s going to become part of your environment. Yeah.

Dr. Andy Roark: just it’s, it’s really consistency, right? It’s funny, I’ve been, I’ve been, I’ve been sort of encountering this, this idea a lot, a lot recently. There are so many things in our lives that we feel like we feel like we need to make a dramatic statement. You know, it’s, it’s the big speech at the end of the movie.

And we say, aha, this is how we will, this is how we will make the impact, or this is what will motivate the people. But the truth is, it’s not that. It’s, it’s the consistent work along and along and along. It’s it’s kind of this this idea, you know, we, we get inspired, which is good, but we go in, we do the dramatic sort of, you know, you know, show,

and then everything kind of falls away.

And it’s, it’s, but it’s,

funny is having the workplace culture. It really is a lot of a positive workplace culture comes down to a lot of mundane work, which is, which is taking the time to notice when things are going well, and to say things to people and say, Hey, I saw you do this really good thing. I really liked what you did.

Hey, I just wanted to call out for the staff meeting. I’m going to give Josh a trophy because I saw him demonstrating one of our team’s core 

Josh Vaisman: values.

Yes. Yes. 

Dr. Andy Roark: it’s that and it’s like, but it’s not, I think a lot of people are like, I’m going to, I’m going to tell the team at the staff meeting how I feel about them.

And

Josh Vaisman: Huh. Yeah. Nah. That’s not it. That’s not it. Yeah. right.

That’s not sustainable. It’s, but it is that, it is that little, it’s just, it’s the consistent thing. And so, so it really clicked in my mind when you said, I’m going to pick one or two things and then I’m going to go in and I’m going to pay attention to those things.

Dr. Andy Roark: And I go, Isn’t that really how you build and maintain a great clinic and a great culture? It’s just that, it’s that one or two small things, and then sort of cycle through them.

Josh Vaisman: Yeah. On our team at Flourish, our director of operations, Tess often says that the work that we do as culture leadership and wellbeing consultants is really dog training for humans. And basically what she’s getting at there is that, you know, ultimately what, what a, an environment, an organizational environment, a team of people working together towards purportedly common goal.

Hopefully it’s a common goal. A group of people like that, really all that is, is repeated norms because those behaviors were incentivized, you know, we get what we incentivize, we get what we reward. And I think where you’re going at with this like, you know, this big grandiose gesture of like standing up in front of the team and staff meeting and today we’re going to change our culture.

Like that kind of stuff is we tend to think of like, I think we intuitively know that, that we get the behaviors we incentivize. We think of that word incentive in these like, Big objective hammers. Pay is an incentive. Like what we pay people to do is a massive incentive to motivate them to do things. We also think that those big, grandiose gestures are a way to incentivize things.

Andy, if you don’t show up in a better mood tomorrow, this will happen, right? And yes, those are incentives, but the incentives that actually build compounding interest over time are those mundane, repeated behaviors that are done with intentionality, what you were just talking about. So if we want to see an environment where people experience fulfillment in their work, we’ve got to find a way to incentivize fulfillment.

And that means we’ve got to understand what fulfillment is and we’ve got to notice it. A great example of this, I’m going to force it a little bit, but it’s recent in my head and I think you will very much appreciate this. There’s a veterinarian who I’ve been doing some leadership and communication coaching with.

And when she approached me, she had started at a practice that had a very different culture than her prior practice. And in this practice, the norms of like, decorum and respect were so intense, that like anything that you did that was in any way perceived as abrasive, people took poorly, but didn’t tell you.

And so over a long period of time, management was getting feedback that this veterinarian was kind of a jerk. Finally, management sits down with like their laundry list, like, you know, sometimes managers, we want to collect all of the data to show somebody that what we’re saying is real, right? So it’s this laundry list of stuff.

And they tell this person, you’ve got to be nicer. What do you mean? What’s that? What does that look like? You just got to be nicer. So she comes to me to like help like figure out ways to do that. So we work together for a while. She comes up, she really, really passionate about changing the perception that others have of her really wanting to be a positive contributing team member.

What her team was experiencing mattered to her. She did not take this stuff personally or defensively. Like she really dove in. So she went back to work to try and implement a lot of the things that we discussed. One of the And then I didn’t hear from her for months, which to me was an indication that things were going pretty well.

Until a few weeks ago when she reached out to me. I need some help again, management sat down with me and told me that in the last two weeks, I’ve really backtracked. And I asked them, what does that mean? And they can’t really describe it or give me some really clear guidance. They just are telling me I got, I got to get better again.

And I said, well, what about like the four months prior when I didn’t hear from you? Oh yeah, things were going great. Well, how do you know things were going great? Well, because I didn’t hear any negative feedback from management. Well, wait a second. Did, did anyone ever tell you that things were going great?

Well, no, but when they gave me this feedback about the past two weeks, they did say, well, just so you know, the four months prior things were great. Like, why weren’t they telling you during those four months? Like we get what we incentivize, you know? And so what they’re incentivizing is fear. This person is terrified now that anything she says or does is going to rub people the wrong way and she’s not going to get feedback from them.

She’s going to get it from management weeks or months later.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, that’s, that’s terrible. And I, I, I see that all the time. You’re, you’re exactly right. But management is really failing this person, especially given, like, from what you’re communicating about, about this. She’s excited to, to try to grow and change. Like, boy, if you’ve got somebody who’s willing to work on themselves and you you,

can’t support that person. Like, Oh, what a missed opportunity. You know, the, the, the thing for me is funny. I seen these scenarios again and again and again. And I, I always try to communicate to people. This is a big sort of Brene Brown thing, but like, what is kind? And I would say, Is this, is management being kind to this doctor by not communicating to her what the problem is or what’s going on?

Absolutely not. They’re just, I mean, I would, if I was her, I would be so frustrated. So frustrated. And again, you would never feel like you could let your guard down. You would never know what you, I just, I, I would, I could not feel comfortable in that place. I don’t think I could, I could stay there after that.

I’d be like, I’m sorry, I don’t know what you people want from me, and you’re not telling me. So, you know, it’s funny, the one of the big things for me is we’re sort of talking about happiness. I keep sort of circling back around. It’s such a simple analogy, but Josh, I, I, I always look at Our relationship with work as a relationship. And I really think that that’s, that’s, for me, that, that makes so many things clear. And it’s sort of like, if I’m in a relationship with someone, I don’t need that person to make me happy. Like, I think that that is a bogus ask to put on that person, you know? I want, I want to feel heard. I want to feel supported.

I want to feel important. I want to feel cared about. But I’m not looking at my spouse going, you’re not making me happy.

Um, 

and, and I think that that’s a fair, a fair analogy for work also is I want you to feel safe. I want you to feel supported. I want you to feel cared about. But I’m, you know, you know, I, this, this relationship has to work for you.

Meaning you have to be fairly compensated or compensated in a way that, that, that meets your needs. But at no, but at no point is the requirement that you should be made happy.

Josh Vaisman: You’re, you’re familiar. I guess I’ll ask you, are you familiar with the work of Daniel Kahneman and thinking fast and slow and so 

Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, I’ve heard, I’ve heard Thinking Fast and Slow. I’ve not read that book.

Josh Vaisman: So the very basic gist of this is that very, very robust research suggests that our brains are sort of built with two systems. He calls them system one and system two.

It’s basically the way that we process our lived experience. And one of those system one is like that instant. It’s that momentary experience, how we’re perceiving things right now. That drives us to pursue momentary, like instant gratification kind of things, right? And then system two is sort of that overarching, more deep, thoughtful part of the brain.

Essentially, what you’re getting at is like when, when you think of a relationship, you don’t think of like, is this person making me happy? You think in terms of. The system one stuff. Does this person validate me? Do they respect me? Do they, you know, like all of these data points that are momentary experiences that combine to give us a system to perspective.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.

Josh Vaisman: This is a happy relationship. Right? A happy relationship is not defined by every moment is happy. A happy relationship is defined by all of these inputs, all of these momentary experiences that over a trajectory of time contribute to me defining the whole of the relationship as happy. I think that’s how we need to shift our perspective.

We can’t be trying to make happy teams in every moment of every day, but we should absolutely think about what are the inputs that lead to an overarching belief that my entire career trajectory in this place was happy. about those inputs and find ways to inject those moments into each day. And if we could do that.

Over time, like you said earlier, when you ask them, are you happy working here? They’ll say, yep, sure am. Even though I don’t feel happy every moment of every day.

Dr. Andy Roark: No, that makes Josh Vaisman, where can people find you online? Where can they learn about you and Flourish Veterinary Consulting?

Josh Vaisman: Our website is flourish.vet. So F L O U R I S H . V E T and I’m pretty active on LinkedIn and Flourish is present on Instagram and Facebook and all that kind of stuff too.

Dr. Andy Roark: Well, sounds great. Thank you for being here. Guys, thanks for tuning in and listening. Take care of yourselves, everybody. 

And that’s what I got for you guys. Thanks for being here. Thanks to Joshua for being here. Gang, I hope you took some pearls out of this.

I just really enjoyed this conversation. Anyway, guys, take care of yourselves. Be well. I’ll talk to you later on. Bye.