Vet Tech Life

Sarah Parsons joins Dr. Andy Roark on the Cone of Shame Veterinary Podcast to discuss the power of positivity and humor in boosting morale within veterinary clinics. She emphasizes the importance of creating content that veterinarians and staff can relate to, avoiding client bashing, and fostering a culture where the daily stresses of vet medicine can be met with humor and light-heartedness. Tune in to learn how Sarah uses her unique style to promote a healthy, positive work environment in veterinary settings.

You can also listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, Soundcloud, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts!

LINKS

Sarah Parsons on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/watreallyhappensatthevet/

Sarah Parsons: www.vettechsarahparsons.com

Team Leads Summit: www.unchartedvet.com/tls2024

Dr. Andy Roark Exam Room Communication Tool Box Team Training Course: https://drandyroark.com/on-demand-staff-training/

Dr. Andy Roark Charming the Angry Client Team Training Course: https://drandyroark.com/charming-the-angry-client/

Dr. Andy Roark Swag: drandyroark.com/shop

All Links: linktr.ee/DrAndyRoark

ABOUT OUR GUEST

Sarah Parsons, LVT, is a distinguished social media Influencer within the veterinary community, renowned for her engaging portrayal as the “silly vet tech” Through vibrant videos showcasing life in Vet Med, Sarah inspires laughter and learning among Veterinary Professionals. She is deeply passionate about fostering a joyful and fulfilling workplace environment. Her dedication has led to being one of the co-founders of Camp VetMed. In addition to her impactful career, Sarah is a devoted mother to two boys. She resides on a ranch in Houston, Texas, where she cherishes outdoor activities, sports, and quality time with friends.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Andy Roark: Welcome everybody to the Cone of Shame veterinary podcast. I am your host, Dr. Andy Roark. Guys, I got a fun one here today. I am talking with Sarah Parsons, LVT.

Sarah is the creative mastermind behind what really happens at the vet clinic, which if you’re on the young people’s social medias like TikTok and Instagram. You’ve probably seen Sarah. She’s got And she her videos rack up literally millions of views. They are made for vet professionals and pet owners.

They love watching them. She’s very very funny and very very creative. She is going to be speaking at the Uncharted Team Lead Summit coming up in September and that was one of the reasons I wanted to talk to her today. It is a really interesting conversation about boosting morale in the vet clinic.

And so we really, we talk about humor. We talk about bringing positivity into the clinic. We talk about bringing positivity as a, as a veterinary technician, as opposed to a doctor and what that looks like. And so anyway, it’s a really interesting conversation. I hope you guys will enjoy it. Let’s get into this episode.

Kelsey Beth Carpenter: (singing) This is your show. We’re glad you’re here. We want to help you in your veterinary career. Welcome to the Cone of Shame with Dr. Andy Roark. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Welcome to the podcast, Sarah Parsons, LVT, thanks for being here.

Sarah Parsons: Hello! Thank you so much for having me! Y’all know I’m a huge fan.

Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, you’re very kind. I am. I am a huge fan of yours. It’s like, this is, this is, it’s almost the first time we’re meeting. We met briefly at a dumpling restaurant one time, but the waiter was like, Hey sir, your table’s ready. I was like, I’m sorry. I have to, I have to leave.

Sarah Parsons: He’s like, I must go. The dumplings are calling me. 

Dr. Andy Roark: That was a very short conversation. 

Sarah Parsons: I was like, okay, bye!

Dr. Andy Roark: Well, so for those who do not know you, you, you are very interesting. I, I, I just, I’ve really enjoyed your work. So you are an LVT. You are a, you are probably one of the biggest veterinary social media influencers that is out there. You have your handle is what really happens at the vet and so I think a lot of people are like, oh It’s that person.That’s her.

Sarah Parsons: Oh, that crazy girl.

Dr. Andy Roark: You, you have a very distinctive style. Yeah. And yeah.

Sarah Parsons: Thank you.

Dr. Andy Roark: So you, you’re going to be speaking at the Uncharted Team Lead Summit, which is for lead technicians, lead CSRs, receptionists, people like that. It is September the 18th when this episode comes out, early bird registration will be going on.

And when you’re there, you’re going to be talking about sort of boosting morale in the vet clinic. And I kind of wanted to talk to you a little bit, looking at your videos, looking at kind of what you do, and the impact that it sort of has. That’s kind of what I want to get into. Are you okay with that?

Sarah Parsons: Yes, of course, I’m super excited to speak whenever it comes up. So, oh my gosh, I’m so excited.

Dr. Andy Roark: Well, you know, I it’s funny. I watch a lot of your videos, and they remind me a lot of kind of stuff that I would do back in the day, as far as like that, just you have so what I admire the most about you, and why I’m such a fan of yours is, you have this you are you’re goofy, you’re silly, and you’re, like You but you have, you have a, such a positive humor and it’s really fun stuff.

Like one of the videos I saw from you very recently was the different types of dogs getting on the dog scale.

Sarah Parsons: Yes! That was so much fun to film!

Dr. Andy Roark: You were so, like you did not bail on the bit. Like you were so invested in each type of dog getting on the scale and it was, it was as ridiculous as it sounds, but it was also just joyful.

And fun and harmless and the comment section was so full.

Sarah Parsons: Oh my gosh. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Oh, so full of people who were like, Oh, that one. Oh, that’s this dog. I saw this dog today. And it was this beautiful thing, Sarah, that, that like, I haven’t seen it really in years. And like I, it’s social media is, and I have a lot of sort of mixed emotions about it, but at its best, the feeling of people who work in vet clinics to say, Oh, Everybody else sees this too.

Yeah. Or it’s that thing when somebody cracks a joke and you’re like, I thought I was the only person who was thinking that. And it’s so funny because you feel so like as like you’re so part of a group that you didn’t, you didn’t recognize that other people were having that experience. And so I just think you capture that so well.

So talk to me a little bit. Let’s kind of talk a little bit about your group. Your sort of social media resume like like overall you do you do a lot of stuff on instagram and tiktok things like that Lay out for me kind of a little bit of like what you do and kind of how you got started with that

Sarah Parsons: Sure. Of course. So what really happens at the vet. Honestly, whenever I started, I did not think it was going to be as big as it got. And whenever you look at social media, of course, we talk about the bads of social media. We talk about people, using it as a platform, but it can be used as a platform for good or not so good.

And we see a lot of veterinary professionals using it for a, not, such a not really good, side. We, there’s a lot of, there can be client bashing, there can be bashing, with each other. There’s, people love to, use social media as a place to for them to feel connected, feel validated.

And a lot of times that can be used, for harm. And they keep going because it gets them engagement, it gets them comments, it gets them likes. There’s that release of dopamine. We all know that social media, isn’t the greatest platform if you’re not used for harm. So whenever I started my social media, I, you know, there was a couple of videos that I would do here and there.

And then I started realizing that people really responded to the ones that were funny and relatable because I know the industry and because I would put out these silly videos where people in the veterinary industry could relate to it and be like, Oh, Oh my gosh, yes, that happens to us. Or yes, oh my gosh, but it’s just never put on display.

I think that there’s just this hidden part of veterinary medicine, that I wanted to show people that actually there’s these funny stories that happens. There is this things that happen in veterinary medicine that you will only know if you work in the industry and so I love putting out the videos that are funny. That are positive and that show vet med in a good way because we all know the horrible side of vet med.

It’s euthanasia clients, the hardships of veterinary medicine obviously get talked about a lot.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. Well, I mean, I, I just, I think, again, one of the things I, just like so much about what you’re doing is, all the hardships of vet medicine are real, but, but your career is what you focus on. It really is. And like, if you go and you live in euthanasia world, that’s, that’s what your practice is gonna be.

I don’t, a lot of people, Anyway, I’m not trying to get into people’s ideas about euthanasia as a good thing or a bad thing and it’s it’s not that but If you go in and live in the angry part of that medicine That’s going to be the experience that you have in vet medicine But if you go and there’s there’s so many good funny wholesome things in vet medicine.

And if you choose to live in that part or to focus on that part, you’re just going to have a different day to day experience. And that’s not trying to invalidate anybody. It’s just our lives really are what we, what we focus on. You can’t, you can’t focus on laughing at the video about the scale and also cry about the hard euthanasia at the same time.

You, you have to pick one, and I’m not saying we do one and lock the other one out, but we can choose most of our day, where, where do we want to live or where we want to spend our time? And so I just, I think that you do such a great job of, of pulling from those positive places. And then, you know, one of the, one of the best parts about humor is the inside joke.

It’s everybody likes to feel like they’re included in the joke. And I feel like your humor really hits on that. And I think the other part is, and you, I saw this way back in the day when I was getting started in, in social and, and in just sort of broadcasting and making videos and stuff, the best stuff was a stuff where the vet professionals were like, that’s the inside joke.

And the pet owners watched from the outside and they were like, Oh, I, I can see how that would be. And so you’re like, you’re humanizing the vets or vet professionals in a really positive way. So I just, I just think you do that so well. What’s what’s been your most popular video so far, or did you have one that really kind of broke out and made you go, oh wow, this is maybe something I should take more seriously.

Sarah Parsons: Well, I can touch on two really quick. The first one, the one that I went super viral. I posted a couple months ago, most random one ever. I did not expect for it to go viral was this one where, , vet techs, whenever we see a dog with the black spots, , on their tongue, the black, know, pigmentation and how it’s kind of an inside joke with veterinary medicine.

Oh, they’re going to be a little naughty and whatnot, but it’s not actually, we all know that at some point. It’s not actually what happens. We know it’s just pigmentation. It’s not related to behavior at all. It’s just this kind of like inside joke. Oh, they’re kind of like a chow, blah, blah, blah, you know?

And so whenever I posted that video, I got. That one went crazy viral, half of the reason I think was people saying, Oh my gosh, that’s so true. And then the other half were like, what, what’s going on? And they kind of wanted to know more. And they’re like, my dog has those black spots. Does it mean he’s a black dog?

So I’m like, no guys, that’s not what it means at all. And then the other one that kind of was the whoa, light bulb moment was the video. Whenever I had the underwear, everyone has a story where the dog eats the underwear and it’s not, it’s not the wife’s underwear and it’s the mistress’s and so I made that video and that was really whenever I think things kind of took off and people really responded to that video.

I think pet, because pet owners and veterinary professionals can both relate to it. You know, veterinary professionals are like, Oh my gosh, that happened to us too. And then pet owners are like, That’s hilarious. It’s not a, it’s not a video that makes fun of pet owners. Everyone, like, I try to steer clear away from multiple topics, actually, whenever I put out my content.

One of which is making fun of pet owners. I don’t wanna make fun of them. I don’t want to portray them as stupid and like, that’s just not professional. And I like to put the silly videos in, but without actually being demeaning or anything.

Dr. Andy Roark: Well, I think that that comes around and it’s one of the reasons that I have just sort of been paying attention to the work and stuff that you do is because when we talk about building positive culture in vet practices, when we talk about team morale, I, I, it’s dangerous to build team morale making the pet owners the bad guy or making the pet owners the joke.

Like, I’ve seen a lot of people who are like, Oh boy, the team really laughs when we make fun of the clients. And I go. They do, and they kind of come together into a squad. The downside is, you’re, you’re bonding them together around the idea that the pet owners are the adversary. If you don’t watch out, or the, or the pet owners should be mocked, and I’ve just, I’ve seen a lot of people do that.

And it, it always, it’s, it’s a dangerous game, and it generally doesn’t go well. And, but

Sarah Parsons: It just bugs you a little bit, you know?

Dr. Andy Roark: It does. And I’ve just, it’s just something I, you know, I decided I love to hear that you sort of made these decisions and it’s obvious from your work. Cause I just haven’t seen you do the client bashing stuff.

And so, it’s, And also, I just want to applaud you here for a second, you know, as, as someone who pays a lot of attention to this, like, the, the algorithms reward dunking on clients, like, you, the stuff, the stuff, and so, I, I used to always sort of say the hardest thing is not being funny, it’s not being funny. Which means, If you’re a funny person, the hardest part is passing on jokes that you know will do very well. But they’re not they’re not what you want to put out and you just do that. And like your commitment is obvious. And so I just I anyway, it’s just something I sort of admired about you and the work you’ve done so far. Let’s let’s talk a little bit about I mean in the same vein.

Let’s talk a little bit about I want to talk about morale and shenanigans. So talk to me a little bit about sort of the humor that you bring and then also sort of how you see that interfacing. And obviously you, you get this response, especially from technicians, but you get this great response to people who are like, Oh man, I feel seen, you know, talk to me kind of about as an LVT who’s sort of making content, what does that, what does that, what are your objectives when you start to make something to try to lift people up and like, what are, what are the big buttons that you, that you try to push?

Sarah Parsons: So there’s so much that could be said about this, and that’s why , we’re having a, , longer team summit , about this one, because I could go on and on about it. But I think there’s just, there’s just so much that could be said about , bringing positivity into the workplace, because we all know it is a, such a difficult, workplace.

It is just, there’s so much emotionally going on that it can be very, very overwhelming. And so whenever people realize that they can have fun, you can joke around, you can poke a little fun at your veterinarians. You can, , do this and it’s going to be okay, you know, knowing the boundaries, then you can have such a fun time with your co workers. if you imagine veterinary medicine as a stormy sea, right? There’s a stormy ocean going on and we all know what a lighthouse is and that’s what I want to be. Then that’s what I want a lot of other people to be as well.

There’s a quote that I’m gonna, , like say really, really quickly. And it says, like a lighthouse that guides the waters for boats and ships to keep them safe in the darkness, we as people should find ways to be a lighthouse for others who may be in the darkness. So, we need more lighthouses. We need more people to show, to show up and talk about, The fact that you can have positivity in veterinary medicine.

It’s almost like there’s an unspoken rule that says you have to be ashamed of being in veterinary medicine. I remember vividly being at an event one time. Actually, I’m a professional face painter. That’s another random fact about me, but I was actually face painting at this event. And there was a clinic that had their booth, , at this event as well.

And, you know, we got to talking and they found out I was a vet tech and they’re like, Oh my gosh, , we’re hiring like everybody else nowadays everyone’s hiring and they said , yeah. And I said, Oh, well do y’all, y’all like working there? And they stopped and they looked at each other. And were like, well….Yeah.

And I was like, you want me to work there, but you don’t even like working there. Like, but what I’m talking about? Whenever people just are they’re not proud sometimes to be where they’re at. Or in the position that they are. And I think that’s so sad because you’re with these people constantly and we’re in this profession.

I want to be proud of what I do. And , and I know that pay is an issue and , there’s other things that goes into it. But let’s be lighthouses. Let’s talk about it more and let’s, show people that there’s, there’s good in the world. Haha

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I love that. That’s right. And the story ends with them quitting their job and coming to work at your practice.

Sarah Parsons: That’s right. 

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Dr. Andy Roark: So a couple, a couple questions. I agree with this. And the way that you sort of lay this, this down, I, I really like this lighthouse metaphor.

And I really like the idea of being proud about where you work in. It, it, my, my question to you is sort of going to be, do you think that you need an internet component to be this sort of lighthouse? Like, do you have to, do you have to film videos to, to sort of bring this philosophy into practice?

Sarah Parsons: I think it really helps. I think it really helps because it’s shown a whole lot of people in, yeah, that lighthouse metaphor could apply to that where I am, that lighthouse trying to show, , other people , what I know and I’m trying to help as in any way that I can to help educate and to help bring that light because you have no idea the comments.

I mean, you have an idea because you, I see you’re, you know, you do a lot of the same type of content as well, but knowing that you’re making a difference in somebody’s life and knowing that people are watching this and people are saying I didn’t quit today because I saw your video and it just resonated with me and, and whatnot.

That just makes my whole world and just knowing that so many bonds can be created and so many people are affected that keeps me going.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, yeah, you don’t, I when you say that, that’s totally true. You don’t realize what people are going through and every now and then, you you show up and, and you, and you, you say nice things to people or you, you, you decide that you’re going to smile today. You decide that you’re gonna be encouraging.

You stop that person and say something nice or positive to them. You give somebody some positive feedback and a lot of times they go, oh, okay, and they’re just gonna go on. You never know when somebody really needed that and you just gave it to them. Do- in that vein, do you think you have to be funny to, to be a lighthouse like we’re talking about?

Sarah Parsons: Oh, that’s a good question. I don’t, I don’t think so. I think a lot of people resonate with the videos whenever I do talk about positivity and morale boosts and everything whenever it’s not funny. But I think also people really love to relate and they, and people love to laugh. So People love humor. People are coming home after a hard day of being a veterinarian or vet tech or, whatever you are in the vet clinic.

And they don’t want to go and look at videos of just people bashing the field they want to go and they want to be like, Oh my gosh, yes. That’s so true. Or I did this today. 

Dr. Andy Roark: So do you think that it helps to, when you, so in the work that you do, and it’s sort of, again, going back to sort of morale, do you think it helps to be a technician or does it hinder or is it, is a mixed bag? What do you, what do you think? How do you look at that?

Sarah Parsons: I think it helps. I think people do confuse me to the veterinarian a lot because, there’s just the videos, but I am quick to, you know, correct them and everything. But I think it also really, really does help. And here is why. Veterinarians and I started off this way as well because I get a lot of veterinary technicians that follow me and especially, the baby veterinary technicians or vet assistants that are starting off.

And I can relate to them on the level that I used to be that person. I used to be super scared, self conscious, and intimidated by all the veterinarians, whether you’re a new grad or not. And so the way that I poke light fun at the veterinarians, you know, like make fun of them, it humanizes them. So you can talk to your veterinarians on the same level as anyone else really, but I used to be so scared and intimidated and, , and if they would, , snap at me, I’m like, Oh my gosh, my career’s over.

It was just so, so scary. And I don’t think the veterinarians realize that either. They’re just going on with their day. They’re focused on whatever case they are. They’re, , they’re on and they don’t realize this, that these baby vet techs are like, Oh my gosh, like about to cry, you know?

And so I love to humanize them a little bit. And and the veterinarians, I love my veterinarians because they’re okay with it. They’re okay with joking around and the fact that they can’t tape catheters. They’re okay with that. So,

Dr. Andy Roark: It’s, it’s that kind of humor. I think you, I think you do that really well. I mean, you, you punch up, , which is what we sort of say in comedy of sort of, I, you know, I, I would not make fun of technicians. But I’ll make fun of myself and other doctors and you know what I mean? It’s sort of there’s sort of that there’s sort of those nuances in how we sort of make humor but I think you give a great example of the veterinarians you know, if you can’t take a video of technicians making fun of you of doc of a general doctor taping a catheter in like come on I think we’re taking ourselves a bit too seriously, but that’s that’s kind of the type of stuff that you do. I think it’s a really good point that you humanize the doctor.

I’m gonna have to sit with that a little bit It’s just in terms of I had not thought about the service of saying to the techs, Hey, the doctors are just normal people too, and, you know, we all kind of have to have to we also have to deal with them and get along. I think that’s I think that’s really fun.

I love that. I love that you do this as a technician because again, when it comes to sort of building morale, I think this is probably a good you take home for generally building morale and teams as a veterinarian I try very hard to come in and be positive and to be encouraging and lift people up.

Sarah Parsons: Which you do a great job of. Which is a fantastic job of. I love that you advocate for veterinary technicians as well. So applaud. Yay.

Dr. Andy Roark: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. But it’s not lost on me that I’m not a veterinary technician. And if somebody wanted to say, Well, he he doesn’t really have the same experience that we do. That’s, there’s truth to that. And I can’t, I can’t, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t deny that. I go, yeah, it’s a bit different being a veterinarian.

Like your, your position is different. You, you know, you, your job is different. And so I, all that to say, I think that there’s great value in whatever role you have in the practice, being that lighthouse, being that beacon, because you’re inside of groups that other people are not inside of. And so even if you say, oh boy, our practice manager is so positive and she’s really great.

Well, she’s not, she’s not in the kennels with you. And your perspective is going to be different. And so you can bring something unique and special to the group that you work with from the position that you’re in. And so I just, I think that that’s, I think that’s great. I’m really, I’m really happy to see sort of the work Sarah that you’re doing out there.

I’m really excited to have you at the Team Lead Summit in in September. And yeah, thanks. Thanks so much for being here. Where can people find you online? I’m sure there’s people who are like, I want to see this black tongue video. I, I, yeah. The underwear video sounds fun. Let’s take a look at that.Where can people find you?

Sarah Parsons: Oh, yes. Everyone loves a good underwear video. So, y’all find me on TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook under the handle at what really happens at the vet. That’s W A T, what really happens at the vet. And you could also find my website vettechsarahparsons.com. So any of those channels you can find me on, I super appreciate any sort of follows or anything.

I love having, you know, or seeing new faces and comments and everything. So, so yeah, I love it,

Dr. Andy Roark: Cool. Thanks for being here Sarah. Guys, take care of yourselves, everybody. I’ll talk to you later.

Sarah Parsons: Bye.

Dr. Andy Roark: And that’s what we got. Guys, I hope you enjoyed it. I hope you got something out of it. Thanks to Sarah for being here. Guys, I would love to see our team leads. Our Our technician team leads our front desk team leads I would love to see you guys at the virtual Team Lead Summit on September the 18th It’s a one day summit just for team leads and we’ll be doing leadership development growth. Sarah will be running one of our one of our workshops that’s there.

Anyway, it’s gonna be a great time. Guys, take care of yourselves. I’ll talk to you later on.

Dr. Jessica Vogelsang discusses the latest findings in veterinary retention and attrition. She is joined by Dr. Andy Roark as they dive into the American Animal Hospital Association’s new white paper, “Stay Please.” Together, they explore both expected and unexpected insights gathered from a survey of over 15,000 veterinary professionals. Tune in to discover the reasons behind the departures and commitments of veterinary professionals, and what these trends could mean for the future of the veterinary field.

You can also listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, Soundcloud, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts!

LINKS

AAHA White Paper: https://www.aaha.org/practice-resources/research-center/white-paper-form-the-path-to-increasing-retention-in-veterinary-medicine/

All Dogs Go to Kevin by Jessica Vogelsang: https://www.amazon.com/All-Dogs-Kevin-Everything-Veterinary/dp/145555491X

Jessica Vogelsang on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicavogelsang/

Uncharted at HiVE in Minneapolis: https://unchartedvet.com/conflict-management-training-navc-hive/

Dr. Andy Roark Exam Room Communication Tool Box Course: https://drandyroark.com/on-demand-staff-training/

Dr. Andy Roark Swag: drandyroark.com/shop

All Links: linktr.ee/DrAndyRoark

ABOUT OUR GUEST

Dr. Jessica Vogelsang is a noted veterinarian, internationally recognized speaker, and bestselling author of All Dogs Go to Kevin. She serves as the Chief Medical Officer at AAHA and is the founder of Pawcurious Media, established in 2009. An early adopter in utilizing the internet for veterinary purposes, she successfully built an online community, influencing hundreds of thousands of pet owners globally. Her achievements include launching several veterinary brands and founding the Veterinary Telemedicine community during the COVID-19 pandemic. Besides her role at AAHA, she is an active board member of the Mark Morris Institute and the Veterinary Virtual Care Association.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Andy Roark: Welcome everybody to the Cone of Shame Veterinary Podcast. I am your host Dr. Andy Roark. Guys, I am here with the one and only Dr. Jessica Vogelsang saying she is the chief medical officer at the American Animal Hospital Association or AAHA as it’s often called. She is here talking with me about a new white paper that AAHA just published.

Put it, put out, it’s called, officially it’s called Stay Please. It is a retention attrition survey about why people leave the profession, why they leave the clinic. Are they thinking about leaving the clinic in the next year? And are they thinking about staying? If they’re staying, why are they staying?

What makes them want to stay? And so we have this really nice conversation about why people leave the profession and why they leave their clinic and then why they don’t leave and what matters. And so it’s just sort of the tip of the iceberg, but I think it’s a really good conversation to start thinking about what people care about and how do we keep people? How do we keep them in our practice? How do we keep them in our profession? So anyway, that’s what we’re talking about. It is a good time. Let’s get into this episode. 

Kelsey Beth Carpenter: (singing) This is your show. We’re glad you’re here. We want to help you in your veterinary career. Welcome to the Cone of Shame with Dr. Andy Roark. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Jessica Vogelsang, how are you?

Dr. Jessica Vogelsang: I’m great. How are you doing?

Dr. Andy Roark: Man, I’m good. It’s so good to see you. Is this your first time on the Cone of Shame podcast? I think it is.

Dr. Jessica Vogelsang: Yes, it is!

Dr. Andy Roark: That’s amazing. 

Dr. Jessica Vogelsang: I remember you back when you were doing YouTube in your basement.

Dr. Andy Roark: Exactly. Well, that’s where I’m, that’s where I’m recording now, old YouTube studio in my basement. I was thinking you know, I always sort of reflect back on when I met people that I interview. I met you in like, 2012, I think, and we were at the Starbucks in San Diego, and I, I reached out to you because I was a huge fan of you, and you were writing, you were writing your blog, Paul Curious, and this is when blogs were really blowing up on the internet and all of that sort of stuff, and it was a long time ago.

Dr. Andy Roark: It was a long time ago. It was a different world. There was no TikTok. It was all just writing blogs on Facebook. And you, you are such a wonderful writer. You, I always enjoyed your perspective so much. You have a book. It’s one of my favorite veterinary books. It’s called All Dogs Go to Kevin. And so anybody who wants kind of a fun it’s, it’s fun, honest read on, it’s sort of a humorous look at, at vet medicine and you’ll sort of your life as a general practitioner and I just, I highly recommend it.

So anyway, you are now onto bigger, bolder things. I’m not saying better because I really liked your blog, but you’re on to bigger, bolder things as the Chief Medical Officer at the American Animal Hospital Association.

Dr. Jessica Vogelsang: That’s right.

Dr. Andy Roark: And I saw you recently, and I was asking you about this initiative that I’ve seen from AAHA that I wanted to kind of break down and I didn’t realize what a big hand you had in it when we first started talking.

So AAHA put out a white paper. It is a retention attrition survey. It’s called Stay Please. It is a— it is a survey mechanism for AAHA hospitals all about basically employee retention and what makes people stay and what makes people leave. And so let me, let me just sort of pause here for one second and kind of hand it over to you for a second. Tell me a little bit about the survey. Tell me about what it does. Tell me about what it was intended for. 

Dr. Jessica Vogelsang: That’s a great question. During the pandemic, McKinsey put out a big survey called the great the great attrition kind of studying all the different factors that make people leave their jobs or make them want to stay. And so our CEO Garth Jordan came to us. We’ve been interested in doing some research anyway and said, what do you guys think about this, modifying this for a veterinary audience. And I said, I’m in, because what we had never seen up until that point was a survey that asks people not only why are you leaving, but asking them why are they staying? And we hadn’t split it up by job roles. So we decided if we’re going to do this survey we really need to get information from people.

What job role do you have in the clinic? And we broke it down into six different groups. And also the other thing that was incredibly important to me was to include people in the survey who left because that was the other narrative that I think had been out there was that people leave by choice. Rather than I’m really, really sad to leave and I really don’t want to.

And so we really wanted to include those people. I was really inspired to participate in the survey. When I was at the moms with the DVM encouragement conference, that’s Julie Busby’s conference that she does every year. And I was looking at this room of moms, many of whom had left the profession and

I think I had been sort of beaten down and disheartened thinking the profession doesn’t want me back. They’re not making a house that’s built for me. And that made me really sad because I’d been there too. This idea that I want to live here, but this isn’t a livable situation for me. So what can we do to make it better?

And that was really the Genesis for me of wanting to be involved in this survey. And we were so excited when we put it out, we normally get About 2 to 3,000 respondents for a typical survey. We had 15,000 people. You couldn’t stop people from responding. They had a lot to say.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, that’s amazing. So I love this, I love this statement, not making a house that’s built for me. Talk to me a little bit about that. So, so that’s sort of, I totally understand. Julie Busby does a great job. Her mom’s with a DVM conference. I’ve heard wonderful things about it. Tell me a little bit more about kind of what the house is not built for me.

Did that bear out in the survey results? What does that sort of look like when you say it?

Dr. Jessica Vogelsang: Yeah, you know, I, I think and again, I’ve been out for a while, but I remember going through vet school and that there’s a certain amount of assumptions. Right? Like if you’re going to vet school, you want to own a practice and, and that’s what you’re going to do. And what does owning a practice look like?

Well, how does that bear out for your life? And sort of a set of assumptions, maybe that you’re not the primary caretaker for someone that you’re not going to have these other challenges or obligations in your life that you will always put veterinary medicine first every single time in every situation for the entirety of your career.

And if you are not able to do that. For some reason, be it temporary or permanent. you’re out, right? You’re out. And once you’re out, you can’t come back. So, so there’s this, all of these competing narratives that veterinary medicine is only allowed to be a part of your life if you’re willing to commit 100 percent to it.

And, you know, whether or not that’s true, I don’t know, but that was, that was always sort of how I felt. And when I was in situations in my life where I needed to take some time off to take care of family members because I had a baby. It was always sort of this sense of disappointment. Great. You know, another one bites the dust rather than like, cool, you know, we’ll see you in six months.

We’ll see you in, in a year when you’re ready to come back bigger and better. And so we’re doing a much better job of, I think, allowing people that flexibility and helping them see that there’s a place for them, but in my opinion, it was very hard one. It wasn’t that we have as a profession ever built that house for them. Like they had to fight. We had to fight our way back in and say, I’m still here. I still have something to give, boss.

Dr. Andy Roark: Well, it, it totally makes sense and I, and I love that this sort of inspired you to, to sort of pay attention to the voices of the people who had, who had left the career or left, left the profession or left their jobs and that, that, that totally makes sense to me. Was that bared out in the results when you look at attrition data, Jessica?

Is that kind of the feedback that you started to see? Tell me more kind of about what this, tell me more, I guess, about why people leave. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Vogelsang: So it’s interesting. We have the data broken down sort of as a monolith and then broken down by job roles. And so when you dig in, we had 15 different factors. The reasons people leave far and away, and this shouldn’t surprise anyone. The number one reason people leave is cause you’re not paying me enough.

You know, I, I, I can’t survive on this. And also unsurprisingly, although it was the top factor for pretty much everyone, it was the top factor by orders of magnitude for our credential technicians. And some of the, some of the things that they said in the survey, like the quotes you get back would, would break your heart.

You know, like I, I, I, I love this profession, but I have to eat. I can’t keep stealing peanut butter from the treat jar in the back because I can’t afford groceries. I’m like, Oh my gosh, what, what is wrong with us that, that we’re doing that? And so it really sort of reinforced a narrative to me that, People are aren’t leaving because I decided the field wasn’t right for me, or I didn’t love it.

I left because there is an untenable situation. So the other factors we don’t work as a team. You know, I don’t feel appreciated. The leadership isn’t caring. You know that all of those top factors are similar across job roles, just in different different degrees of importance. But it gives us a really clear blueprint for if you want people to stay, you know, here are the things that that you need to do that you need to make better for them so they won’t want to leave.

Because most people And so we, so we asked them, you know, are you planning on staying? Why are you planning on leaving? Why? And if they said that they were planning on leaving in the next year and 30 percent of the respondents said, I’m thinking about leaving and we know statistically 25 percent of them actually do 25 percent turnover in this profession across all job roles, which is huge.

But you asked them what they wanted to do, and most of them were looking for another job within the profession. Very few people were like, I’m out, you know, they were looking for either a job in another clinic, but half of them were doing that. And the other half were saying, I’m looking for a job in industry.

So people were just really, we’re tied. We’re tied emotionally to this vet profession. People don’t get into this for the same reason that people go into other jobs. Like there is a deep emotional connection to the work that we do. People find it very meaningful. And so when they leave. I think most of us are trying really, really hard to still keep a finger in it.

Now, you don’t put years and years of your life into a profession to leave after five years, but that’s what’s happening with our technicians. The average length in this field is five years. Like how that’s, that’s not good.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Vogelsang: That’s a big problem. Well,

Hey guys, I just have to jump in with incredible news. I will be traveling with the Uncharted Veterinary Conference team. That includes Stephanie Goss and Maria Pirita we are going to Minneapolis for the NAVC HiVE conference that is there. This is on June 15th and 16th. Guys, we are doing a one day Uncharted conflict management training program. 

That’s right. And it is included with the cost of HiVE. All you have to do is register for the HiVE conference that’s $99 for two days. One day, you can spend it with us, bring your team, send multiple people from your practice, put them together. We’ll put them at round tables. We will have them working together, talking about conflict management. 

We’re going to take them through a whole day. This is not a series of lectures. It’s not, they’re going to go to one and they’re going to do something else. Nope. Check the box register for the Uncharted event at HiVE. And you will spend the day with us. And I guess you’re never going to see an Uncharted event that is a day long. 

That is $99. Again, like this is the best price you will ever see on conflict management. So anyway, if you are anywhere near Minneapolis, June 15th and 16th, Come to the HiVE event it’s $99 and you get a day with Uncharted. If you register for it and the other day, you can use it HiVE and get their amazing CE for technicians and managers. Anyway I’ll put links in the show notes. 

You should learn more. I’m serious. If you were within hours of HiVE, there was never going to be a chance for you to sign up multiple team members come together. And do conflict management training as a group. This is a phenomenal opportunity, please don’t miss it. If you’re able to make it, it’s going to be great. 

Let’s get back into this episode. 

Dr. Andy Roark: Were there big drivers that were role specific? So, so I totally understand that, you know, there’s basically the same sort of drivers and they’re sort of re prioritized across roles, but when you say that pay is an orders of magnitude larger concern for our credential technicians, that, that tracks to me.

Were there other items like that where you said this role specifically is being disproportionately impacted by this factor or, or was it otherwise mostly just sort of a reorganization of, of The, the general factors.

Dr. Jessica Vogelsang: I think far and away, you know, the, the pay is, is the big one. And so, You know, what that means is as soon as you get that part sorted out, right, then you have a lot more leeway to figure out what the rest of the factors are. So it’s something that was really interesting to me was when you look at retention factors the top three retention factors for associate DVMs and credential technicians, they map perfectly one to one.

This is a cohort of people who are in it for the same reasons and care for the same reasons. So meaningful work, modern medicine staff works as. And so the thing that was different was that we’re not You know, the associate DVMs for the most part weren’t saying, I can’t afford a car. You know, that’s the sort of thing that our credential technicians were saying, but their attention factors were very, very similar.

These are people that were very motivated by the same things. And the other thing that really, really jumped out to me was talking about, Your, your CSRs and, and support staff, the professional development was a huge retention factor. And oftentimes when I’m presenting this research or talking to to groups, I’ll say, how many of you offer continuing education or professional development for your CSRs?

And a fraction, a small fraction of the room will raise their hands. And so the sorts of things that we were hearing from them is it. Clearly, I’m not in this for the money. I could make the same amount of money at at a grocery store or a retail job and probably be a lot less stressful. I’m in this because I love it.

But in return, I would really love if you would help support my professional development so I can be better at my job. There’s very specific job specific roles. And I want to I want to do better. Help me.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, Yeah, that, that, that totally makes sense. What is it? What do you think it means Jessica, when, when, you know, number three, the staff works as a team? Do you get inside into, like, what, give me an example of what that looks like when a staff works as a team versus when they don’t. Is that everybody is, is working off sort of a unicor–, a uniform treatment protocol?

Like we’re all kind of practicing the medicine, like, is that, is that, is that a workplace culture response? What do you, what do you think that means?

Dr. Jessica Vogelsang: Yeah. I’m so glad you asked that actually. And I swear this wasn’t a plant everyone. We actually just had a meeting about that this morning and trying to figure out how we can research that more because we were pretty intentional when we asked that we didn’t define it. And so the people who responded all had something different in their heads.

So now we sort of have a framework for the next white paper. What does that mean? Team based medicine is a very specific defined discipline specifically on the human side. And I think there are some groups in vet med that are really starting to pick at that. But we have a lot of work to do in order to define what that means.

For me personally, it’s about creating a culture that is family centered practice, right? You put the patient and their family members at the center of every decision that’s made and then everybody else is supporting that. And so everybody on the periphery has to figure out how to work together to support that as opposed to, I think, some of the ways that we maybe center ourselves right now

in, in that decision making process or how things function in the clinic. So it’s just a very different way of thinking, but we’re going to spend some time teasing that out.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah. That, that. That totally makes sense. I just think, I think it’s when you get feedback like that, I often say, what exactly does that it, does it look the same for everybody? So, so we’ve talked a bit about, about sort of the reasons people leave and we talk a bit about the reasons that they stay.

I, I, I love the idea that the, the vets and the techs both, both are top three are the exact same. That, that totally makes sense to me. I think, I think, you know, it’s funny with a meaningful work as number one, I see as we’ve had sort of corporate groups moving into vet medicine, and all corporate groups are different, but I have seen conflict in that way where there’s a lot of a lot of companies will use sort of operations language to try to talk to the doctors and the technicians and it doesn’t go well because they’re not here to hit your operation numbers.

They’re here for a much more sort of heartfelt purpose. And it’s just that has been a communication like conflict that I’ve kind of seen over and over again in the last couple years. So that totally tracks number one for when you start sort of looking at these things, you know, one of the things about the survey that I think is interesting is, you know, what do you do with it and where do you go with it?

Can you talk to me a little bit about, you know, I know a lot of people are listening because they’re like, well, you know, I wanted to hear about retention in the practice and what can I do? How can I assess my own practice and what can I do to try to, to try to keep people here? Can you talk to me a little bit about, about best practices?

Dr. Jessica Vogelsang: Yeah. And this is all, it’s so early stages in terms of the work that we have to do. So, you know, at AAHA, our whole purpose and mission is to simplify the journey to excellence for veterinary practices. So it’s not about hitting a mark or hitting a brass ring. It is about doing better every day. And so what we need to do and what our challenges as an organization is, again, we have this information in front of us.

What next? So how do we help people regardless of whether you’re a practice manager who wants to help their team function better or whether you are maybe a new grad trying to figure out is this, how do I figure out what the right job is for me? What questions do I need to be asking my interview? I want to build out a tool set that help people explore all of those things.

So you know what to ask for because we all know how to ask for salary right now. I think it’s, you know, at the very least we’ve done a better job at helping people ask for that. But as we know now, that’s just the beginning because there are lots and lots of people who picked a job that paid the most.

Who are wretchedly miserable that there’s other things that matter. How do you know how to ask for those things? How do you know how to determine whether or not you’re going to be able to get them at the job that you’re at? So it’s, there’s a lot of work ahead of us, but it’s energizing. It’s so energizing to me.

Dr. Andy Roark: Do you think that it’s possible to teach people that? I’ve been thinking about this a lot because, you know, when I work with practice owners and you know, they’ll be talking about recruiting or hiring veterinarians, whatever. And it sounds like so many people come with a salary number and that’s it. Like, that’s all they got.

It’s like, I don’t know what else you do, but this is the financial number. And it’s just, it’s interesting to look and to say, I’m not, I’m not shaming anybody for a salary number they come with but. But I, I don’t know that that number is really what is going to make people happy versus the culture of the place that they’re working, other things like, like time off to support the continuing education support, all of those sorts of things.

And I don’t know, it’s, it’s sort of a nuanced conversation, but I still, I continue to see people that hold so tightly to the money and I think when you jump back to what we were talking about the very beginning, when we look at the number of, one reason that people leave, I think that justifiably there’s, there is concern about money in vet medicine and what people get paid.

So again, I’m not, not trying to knock that, but I, I’ve been rolling around a lot trying to have good, productive, nonjudgmental conversations about what makes people happy and practice beyond salary. But I don’t know that there’s a good way to approach it.

Dr. Jessica Vogelsang: Well, it’s not an either or conversation, right? It’s a yes. And so you need to have a living salary and you need to have these other things. And that is part of the challenge because I don’t, you don’t necessarily know how much you need something until you’re in the middle of it. So some of that is time and experience.

I think mentorship and we have so many great programs out there that are starting to help people understand and develop that having a mentor who can maybe help you get some clarity on that can be super helpful. And one of the other things that really jumped out at me as one of the factors that we asked about for folks was flexibility.

And the only group where flexibility was a top factor in retention was associate DVMs. And you know, you can theorize about why that is, but that’s a group and I’m thinking again about the moms at the DVM group. That’s huge. Do people even know to ask for that? Is it something that you know you’re going to want in, in your job or career?

And so those are all the conversations that we still need to be having. And so how do you offer that? If you are a team, that’s really proud of what you have to offer. And because we hear that all the time, I can’t compete with the salaries that maybe another clinic in town is offering. How do you help people understand?

How do you quantify the value of the rest of it? And it’s not about, you can’t really put a dollar amount on those things. So I think we have to start telling those stories and finding those people who, at the end of the day I think meaningful work is the hardest thing to quantify. That’s going to look different for you, for me, but we have to be asking ourselves what makes life meaningful, and to me, you know, the reason that that I love being in vet med.

And the reason that every time I got kicked out, I came back, it’s like, there’s nothing else I want to do. Meaningful work to me is doing anything to honor that human animal bond. So when I was in the clinic, my goal was to make sure that that, that pet and that owner left. That that somehow improve their outcome, right?

That means a lot of different things. And there’s a lot of things that have to go to play to make that happen. And so now at AAHA, I want people to stay in this profession and find value and find meaning in it and being in an organization where I’m in. The ability to help tell those stories and elevate those conversations that is meaningful to me.

Dr. Andy Roark: Yeah, it sounds like it sounds like you have a lot of sort of next steps, you know, with this, with this program as we look at it.

It’s it And funny, you know, you and I talked about with you, what’s it mean when we say the team works well together? I think you can equally just ask, you know, what does it mean to have meaningful work?

Like, do do is that uniformly defined? I’m sure it’s probably not. But talk to me a little bit. Where do you see this going? Jessica? Like, what are sort of the next steps? Where does this research take you?

Dr. Jessica Vogelsang: Yep. So, next steps for us are starting to build out some of those, those tools for people. And so asking people, figuring out which of these things do we want to focus on first? What do people need? Who is the audience that we’re trying to give these tools to, right? And I think employers and employees both have a different set of tools that they need.

So we’re going to be talking to people and finding out what’s the number one thing that you need help with right now is understanding what understanding what teamwork looks like is a big one. So I think we’re probably going to go in that direction, helping to quantify what What their pay means.

That’s very challenging to do for a lot of different reasons. But just helping people understand, you know, we did a separate survey a couple years ago where we were asking everybody in the team. What do you think your technicians make? What do you think they should make? And what do you want to make?

And so for the vast majority of technicians, what they were asking for wasn’t like twice what they were making. They’re saying I need 5000 more. I need 5000 more, which, you know, when you look at what it costs to lose a good technician, it’s going to be a lot more than that. So even just starting with some of those basic conversations, do you even really understand what the problem is and what you need to do to solve it in the short term or long term?

So. So that’s a really long answer to a short question, but this is a lifelong, like, I could write out the rest of my career just trying to figure out what all this means.

Dr. Andy Roark: I’m going to put links in the show notes, everybody to the white paper. You’ll be able to check that out. I will link to the AAHA website just so people can can have that. Jessica, where can people follow you online?

Dr. Jessica Vogelsang: I am on LinkedIn a lot, so feel free to look me up there. I love to have conversations and talk with folks about all of these things. It’s really grown as I, because I know Andy, when we first when we first met at the Hilton or wherever that was you were just asking me how to get on Twitter. That’s how long ago it was.

Dr. Andy Roark: How, yeah, how, it’s– there’s new thing called Twitter, really interested in it. Yeah yep It was that, back in a much simpler, more naive time online.

Dr. Jessica Vogelsang: So now we’re all LinkedIn.

Dr. Andy Roark: Well, thank you so much for being here. Guys, thanks for tuning in and listening. Take care of yourselves, everybody!

And that’s it. That’s what I got for you. Thanks so much for being here, everybody. Thanks to Dr. Vogelsang for being here. She is a dear longtime friend of mine.

I’m so glad to get to have her on the podcast. Anyway, guys, take care of yourselves, everybody. Be well. I’ll talk to you later on.

Dave Cowan and Jeff Backus, Emergency & Critical Care Veterinary Technician Specialists and the hosts of the Vet Tech Cafe podcast, join Dr. Andy Roark to talk about when veterinary technicians consider leaving vet medicine.

Both Dave and Jeff were considering walking away from vet medicine when they met and decided to start their own podcast. Since then, they’ve learned lessons and gained insight on how to keep technicians engaged with vet medicine (and also when it’s just better to go ahead and leave).

Let’s get into it!

You can also listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, Soundcloud, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts!

LINKS

Vet Tech Cafe Podcast Homepage

Dr. Andy Roark on Vet Tech Cafe

Dr. Andy Roark Exam Room Communication Tool Box Team Training Course: https://drandyroark.com/on-demand-staff-training/

Dr. Andy Roark Charming the Angry Client Team Training Course: https://drandyroark.com/charming-the-angry-client/

Dr. Andy Roark Swag: drandyroark.com/shop

All Links: linktr.ee/DrAndyRoark

ABOUT OUR GUESTS

Dave Cowan BA, CVT, VTS(ECC) has been in the veterinary field for over 25 years.  He has worked for an educational farm, the Animal Rescue League, general practice and emergency/specialty practices  In 2013, Dave passed the Academy of Veterinary Emergency and Critical Care Technician (AVECCT) exam and became a Veterinary Technician Specialist (VTS) in Emergency and Critical Care.  He moved to North Carolina in 2016 and has spent time as a technician supervisor, an education and training coordinator, and was lead instructor for a Veterinary Technician Program. In 2019, Dave co-founded the Vet Tech Cafe Podcast with Jeff Backus.  The podcast tackles difficult issues that veterinary technicians face as well as highlighting some of the many career opportunities available to technicians. Dave joined Action Vet Tech Services in 2020 and now works relief shifts at various practices both ER/referral and GP while also providing CE and training opportunities 

Dave has served on the New Hampshire Veterinary Technician board as the head of the credentials committee.  He has been the chairperson of the AVECCTN credentials committee and is now one of the Members at Large on the AVECCTN Board.  Dave lives in Hillsborough NC on a farm with his partner Robyn and her daughter Ruby. They have many animals to care for including goats, horses, chickens, and a donkey to go along with 2 dogs, and 2 cats., I have a one year old daughter.

Jeff Backus started as a veterinary assistant in general practice in 1995 and began working in ECC in 2004. He became an RVT in 2009 and VTS(ECC) in 2013. Jeff also taught veterinary technician education for 7 years. He has been on the Board of Directors for the California RVT Association for 8 years, serving as President position from 2020-2022, and is now past President. After 4 years in academia at Tufts University, he relocated back to Southern California with his wife and began working for the ASPCA Animal Poison Control Center. He is also a frequent lecturer and speaker with a focus on toxicology. He co-founded the Vet Tech Café podcast with Dave Cowan in 2019, talking about issues that face the veterinary technician profession with leaders in the field, and all of the amazing opportunities of the veterinary technician profession.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Andy Roark:
Welcome everybody to the Cone of Shame Veterinary Podcast, I am your host, Dr. Andy Roark. Guys, I got two friends in today, Dave Cowan and Jeff Backus, they are the host of the Vet Tech Cafe Podcast, we talk about that a little bit getting started. And we come in and I started to talk to them, I want to talk to them about lessons learned from their years of interviewing mostly veterinary technicians and we immediately found the path that I was really interested in, which was when they talked about when they met each other and were both basically burned out and thinking about leaving that medicine. And I said, “man, is that common, do I hear that from technicians, including boarded technicians like they are, I just hear this a lot of, I reached this point and I was thinking about leaving the profession, I was ready to get out.”
And so we stopped there and just started to unpack the lessons they have learned about when we reached the point of thinking about leaving the profession. And so we get into that, we talk about headspace, we talk about all the people that they’ve interviewed, and what lessons they’ve learned, and what keeps them engaged and things like that. But it is really an interesting conversation, it’s a lot about technicians specifically, but it’s also a lot just about burnout, it’s about the stresses of our profession, and it’s about the idea that just because you have done something, it doesn’t mean that you have to do it forever. Just because you’ve been in that medicine for 10 years, that doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to continue practicing as you did for the rest of your career. I think a lot of times we put that weight on ourself, but it’s not real, we make it in our own minds. So anyway, that’s the episode, that’s what we’re here talking about, so guys, let’s get into this.

Kelsey Beth Carpenter:
(singing) This is your show. We’re glad you’re here. We want to help you in your veterinary career. Welcome to The Cone of Shame with Dr. Andy Roark!

Dr. Andy Roark:
Welcome to the podcast, Dave Cowan and Jeff Backus, how are you guys?

Dave Cowan:
We’re doing great, how are you doing?

Jeff Backus:
Yeah, doing well.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I’m doing really well, I’m glad that we could sit down and talk. For those who do not know you, you are both veterinary technicians, you both have veterinary technician specialties in emergency and critical care. And I met you as you two are the host of a podcast called Vet Tech Cafe, and you invited me to be on a year ago and I just had the most lovely time.

Dave Cowan:
Yeah, it was great, we enjoyed talking to you.

Dr. Andy Roark:
It was really good. I felt very honored because it is very rare to have a veterinarian on the podcast-

Dave Cowan:
That’s true.

Dr. Andy Roark:
… As you guys-

Jeff Backus:
That’s true.

Dr. Andy Roark:
… Tend to talk to technicians, so that was quite an honor for me. But I enjoyed the conversation so much, I thought it’s been a year since I came and met with you guys. And so I wanted to talk a little bit about your podcast, I want to talk mostly about the veterinary technician space and culture and things like that.
And I want to talk about that because it was funny when we were here doing the soundcheck, getting ready for the podcast, our producer said, “so you guys you are techs, you work with techs, you also do the podcast, it’s like you guys are putting on the cape and going and doing the thing.” And I thought that was funny, but let me go ahead and just start this out, let’s talk a little bit about Vet Tech Cafe and what it is before we start to get into what it means for technicians. So what was the vision for your podcast when you got started?

Jeff Backus:
Honestly, Dave and I met when we were doing our specialty certification several years ago and we were at Ivex in-

Dave Cowan:
2019.

Jeff Backus:
… Twenty eight-

Dave Cowan:
2019.

Jeff Backus:
… 2019 in DC, we were sharing an Airbnb and we were just hanging out one night after lectures and we were both in the same like, do we want to keep doing this or do we want to get out of med headspace? We were both not in a great spot in veterinary medicine and then we started talking about this podcast, somehow the conversation shifted to that and got us really thinking about all the cool things and cool people we knew that were doing these cool things and that reinvigorated us. And we talked for a couple of hours and then the next day we were like, “so are we doing this?” And now almost four years later, here we are.

Dave Cowan:
And it was more about the fact that we were frustrated, we’re like, “is there something we could do that’s different?” Because all we knew was clinic work, because we worked on the floor for 20 some odd years and we were both frustrated in our jobs and frustrated with where our career was stuck and we said, “there’s got to be something else out there.” And it shifted to a talk about a podcast, I don’t exactly remember how we shifted to that, but we said, “there’s nothing really in the podcast space for technicians, there’s a lot for the field, there’s a lot for veterinarians, but nothing really specifically for us,” and we’re like, “we should probably do that.”

Dr. Andy Roark:
I love that you did it. I think there’s a lot of people out there doing really good stuff at this, specifically the thing I liked about the way you set it up, it’s what I started trying to do with here with the Cone of Shame, was there were people out there I wanted to talk to and give a platform to. And so it wasn’t that you guys set out, or at least not since I became aware of you, it wasn’t that you were like, “we want people to hear us,” it was more like, “we’d like to talk to these other people and learn from them.” And I just think that it’s almost like a service position in that way of trying to shine the light on what others are doing. I think you do that really well, I encourage people to take a look at your podcast and look at the episodes you have.
It’s fascinating to hear you talk about that, about how you met. And so now I get to talk to some of the most successful people in the world in either in our industry and the proportion of highly successful technicians that tell me, “I don’t want to do this anymore,” or that they went through that period, it’s enormous. It is usually after we turn the microphone off or whatever, they’ll be like, “God, I was so burned out two years ago, I was trying to get… Or they’ll be like, “I’m thinking about doing something different,” and it seems to be such a widespread problem of people just getting tired of the technician role and burning out.
I’ve also had people who have come to me and asked the same questions that you were asking each other, which is, “what else is there?” Or say, “I’m in my forties, I’m into my fifties, my body’s not holding up like it used to. I have this background, I have this experience, I may have this advanced training, but I don’t know if I can keep doing that.” Talk to me a little bit, so when I say that, do you think that your position of, do we want to get out of the industry, do you think that that’s common?

Dave Cowan:
Very common.

Jeff Backus:
Yeah, very common. When we started, I was living in New England, my wife had just graduated vet school, was doing a couple of internships in Rhode Island and I was working at Tufts University. And working in academia darn near broke me and I was ready to get out, I was ready to go pour beer to brewery, that was going to be my next step. And we were coming back home to California and we had started this podcast, which frankly for me, I have found so reinvigorating for this career, hearing from people that found their niche and found what they love to do and they’ve carved out a path and a career for themselves.
Because like Dave was just saying, we’re ECC techs, that’s what we’re boarded in and sure you can move around to other ERs or ICUs or maybe even move into different departments in the hospital, but you’re still in the hospital. It was a little bit of a narrow focus, but with all of these guests that we’ve talked to, and we have learned so much about so many things that we didn’t even know existed after 20 some years in the field. So it’s been really, really reinvigorating for my career especially.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.

Dave Cowan:
You don’t know this, but Jeff and I are both extreme introverts and when we said we’re going to start a podcast, my partner, she’s like, “the guy who doesn’t want to talk to anyone’s going to have a podcast?” I’m like, “yeah, this is different.” And the fact that we can do that and talk to these people and bring their stories to our listeners, that’s amazing because we’ve gotten feedback from a lot of people saying, “I want to try that, I want to do that,” and going down that path of saying, “I’m tired of doing this too, so what else can I do?” So I think a lot of our listeners listen to us because they want to figure out something different to do, which was the whole point of starting the thing, right?

Jeff Backus:
Yeah. And there really is a lot you can do as a veterinary technician, under the umbrella of veterinary medicine, there are a lot of roles and careers inside and outside of the clinic that are out there. I think now in 2023 with remote jobs, there’s more than there’s ever been, but a lot of us just don’t know how to find it or don’t know what those jobs are. And so talking to some of these people that figured it out and are doing it, it’s awesome to listen to, from my perspective.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Taking a step back from the path, which is looking at alternate ways to practice, if someone came to you now in the position that you were in when you started and they were like, “man, I’m thinking about getting out of the profession, just leaving vet med in general, I’m not sure if I want to, but really, that’s where I am.” Based on your experience and then also the hundreds of people that you’ve talked to, what kind of roadmap would you build for somebody like that? Give me a quick action step, give me a treatment plan for someone who’s there.
And again, you don’t exactly know what’s going to work and what’s going to be different, but if they came to you and said, “I need a treatment plan, what are the steps, things like that.” And so let’s start with headspace, is what I like to talk about, it’s just before we get into what would you do, just philosophically, what have you come to believe about when you’re ready to leave? Where would you try to get them in their head to look at the profession or look at the options? Would you be optimistic? Would you tell them, “no, this may be unavoidable?” What would you try to get them to visualize for themselves?

Dave Cowan:
Well, first thing is, do you want to be in this field? That’s my first question, figure out why did you get into this field in the beginning and then find out is that still true? And I’m going to refer back to something you told us when you were on the show, find out what you love to do and find ways to do more of it. If working on the floor is not what you want to do, figure out where you can go from there and figure out what it is that you like doing in this field and figure out ways to do more of it. And the other part is that, is this field isn’t for everyone, so if you’re two, three years in it and you’re burnt out already, maybe this isn’t the field for you. For Jeff and I-

Jeff Backus:
And that’s okay.

Dave Cowan:
… Yeah, that’s perfectly fine. Don’t stay in it if you’re going to be miserable because we’ve got plenty of miserable people in this field that we don’t-

Dr. Andy Roark:
We’ve got enough miserable people.

Dave Cowan:
… Yeah, we’ve got enough miserable people, we don’t need to add to it, and just figure out what you like to do and find ways to do that.

Dr. Andy Roark:
It’s fascinating to me that you just own it like, “this might not be the place for you.” I think that’s true, I love the candor in just saying that, why do you want to be here, I think that’s good.

Jeff Backus:
And I think on our side of the spectrum too, our schooling, if you go the traditional AVMA route, it’s only two years, yes, there’s some student debt associated with that, but there are so many assistants that come into the field that haven’t gone through the educational path. So I don’t feel like they have the burden of the undergrad and the four years of vet school and the level of debt associated with that. So it’s a little bit easier to exit if so desired.
But I think to Dave’s point is, you work in a clinic for a little while, maybe that becomes stagnant, maybe it doesn’t interest you any longer. Or sometimes people just get promoted to supervisory or managerial roles that they’re not thriving in that they don’t love just because they were the most senior person there and that’s taking away from their love of the job. And so it’s like Dave said, getting back to what drew you to it in the first place, it’s like if you want to be on the floor, just be on the floor and take yourself out of those other roles. Or if you don’t want to be on the floor anymore, then what about being on the floor that you like, and what kind of things can you do with that that are just no longer on the floor anymore?

Dr. Andy Roark:
There’s this narrative that the career path, especially for paraprofessionals, but even for doctors, but definitely for paraprofessionals, the career path is upward into management. And you’re like, “why would that be true necessarily?” The thing that makes you a great practitioner on the floor, that doesn’t prepare you to manage other people in my experience, and you said that this is what you wanted to do.
I think one of the biggest challenges for technicians, and it is also true for doctors, I think both are opening up now, but it used to be, it was a hard development ceiling at the clinic level of, well, you’re a new tech and now you’re an experienced tech, and-

Dave Cowan:
And that’s it.

Dr. Andy Roark:
… That’s the end of … yeah, that’s it, and next step, management.

Dave Cowan:
Congratulations, you made it.

Dr. Andy Roark:
You made it, exactly right. So first of all, actually let me pause here and just so say, because you’re both in emergency critical care, do you think emergency critical care is worse as far as people burning out or over a certain period of time they go, “I don’t want to do this?” I’ve always wondered if the lifestyle that’s usually associated with it, if that puts more stresses on people or if you disagree?

Jeff Backus:
I would say I agree, I think each individual facet, each specialty deals with its own things that make it more difficult than others in certain areas. But I will say for emergency and ICU, the off hours, I will say I did overnights exclusively for 15 years and the toll it takes is not worth the $2 an hour shift differential.
But also, I think the level of the cases and the frequent interaction with futile care and just cases that we know are not going to end well and still pouring everything that we’ve got and such a high volume of those cases, I think it takes a little bit more toll. That being said, for internal medicine techs, I imagine the chronicity of some of those cases and just the slow linear progression takes the same kind of toll in a different way on them. And same thing too with general practice, I think it’s much the same, it’s just in a little bit different way.

Dave Cowan:
Yeah, I’ve worked in general practice and I’ve worked in emergency, and when I made that switch to emergency, I looked back at some of my colleagues that were still in general practice and the things that they were complaining about, for a lack of a better term, I’m like, “I don’t even care about that stuff anymore, it’s just a different mindset in emergency.” So like Jeff said, there’s stresses on every department of this field that I think sometimes people go to ER because they like the chaos, they like constantly having stuff to do and constantly be moving and the critical nature of it.
But other people like the, I don’t want to say relaxed, that’s probably not the right term, but the more steady pace or scheduled thing of working in general practice, where Jeff and I enjoy the ones where we have to think about things and use our brains and be active in the treatment of these cases. But I think every department in this field has its own stressors that are pushing people out of the field really.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Coming up on November the 14th with my good friend Dr. Emily Tincher, she’s been on the podcast a number of times, I love having her here, she is such a fun, interesting person who’s a deep thinker. And so anyway, she is doing a webinar called Clinical Empathy: The Exam Room Skill That Can Transform Your Team. I’ve had Emily on the podcast before talking about Clinical Empathy, this is a really good skill building webinar, this is great for your support staff as well as your doctors, but your team leads especially, but your technicians, your assistants, your CSRs, all of this is just is such a great communication content, I think you’re going to really like it. So anyway, that is on November the 14th, it is at 3:00 PM eastern noon Pacific.
And then the last one in the series is on December 13th, it is with Dr. Simon Platt, it is called, Head Cases: A Spectrum of Care Approach to Neurology in General Practice. So if you’re a neurology buff, if you like seizures, not like seizures, if you like knowing about seizures, if you like neurophysical exam tips, tricks and hacks, things like that, this is going to be a great webinar. So again, this is on December 13th, it’s at 1:00 PM Eastern, that’s 10:00 AM Pacific Time. Gang, I would love to see there, the links to all this stuff are in the show notes, go ahead and grab a spot, I’ll see you there. Let’s get back into this episode.
Well, going back to our treatment plan for I’m not sure I want to do this anymore, so we talked a bit about headspace, recognize why you want to be here, I think that’s great remembering your why point. Let’s move into other action steps, so once you come to that place and you are sure you do the reflection, and I talk to a lot of people who say, “I do really love it, I’m just unhappy, Verizon Wireless is not calling out to me, I’m not purpose driven to be a cell phone salesperson, but the benefits are not bad and it’s close to my house and I’m honestly thinking about going there.” So help me start to walk towards understanding what my options are.

Dave Cowan:
Well, as the three of us know, this is a very small field, everybody knows somebody. If there’s something that you want to do, there’s probably somebody you know or somebody that you are in direct contact with that has experience in that department or the field, you just have to talk to people, you have to network. And we talk about this on the podcast a lot, is that when we first started out, social media was not a thing, and now social media is very wide and it’s got its pros and cons. But one of the pros is that we can network with people that we would never have contact with years ago, there’s ways to find those career opportunities just by scrolling through social media.

Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, I think that’s a great point.

Jeff Backus:
And I think too, in some ways in this field, a lot of times we have almost an adversarial relationship with our management team and depending on what that structure is. But I think if you are seriously contemplating leaving your clinic or changing jobs or whatever it is, I think an honest conversation with management and actually involving them is really important because just don’t look at it as just their manager and you’re going to get fired or whatever, but they might actually be a resource to help network like Dave’s talked.
I would hope that that person actually wants to see you succeed, and maybe that’s not always the case, but they might have suggestions for you or this conversation of, “what do you like specifically about being here and your job here? Can we help do more of that and take away some of what you don’t like so that you feel more valued here or you start to enjoy your job more?” And again, I realize maybe that’s just rose colored glasses, but I think at some point, you have to have those conversations with the people that are responsible for the work that you do in your clinic because otherwise, it’s just going to be the same old thing.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I love these points, I think this is excellent. So I started thinking about thinking about this, so I want to start with David’s point, but, boy, 20 years ago, the idea of technicians networking was just dumb. And I would say that to people and they would just look at me like, what are you talking about? I think Jeff’s point of social media coming up is a huge one, it’s been particularly huge for technicians because there are so many groups of technicians online, things like that. None of that stuff used to exist, all the practices were very siloed and the practices would even try to keep the techs away from other techs because you didn’t want them to jump ship and-

Jeff Backus:
You didn’t want them to compare notes.

Dr. Andy Roark:
… You didn’t want them to compare notes, you didn’t want them to jump ship and go to the place down the road. And so you’re like, “you know what, I keep my people here and their people can be over there.” That’s an old school mentality that has nicely gone away, but I think social media opened up a lot for that. And there’s been so many technicians like yourself who have said things like, “you should go to CE.” And again, that’s another massive opportunity that just wasn’t there that long ago, there just wasn’t a lot of tech CE and now there’s so many more options, so I really do love that.
To Jeff’s point about talking to management, there’s two pieces to it, the first is, I’m a big believer in Brene Brown’s saying that, “clear as kind.” Which is, if you’re seriously thinking about bailing, if you seriously think, I can’t keep doing this, is it kind to the place that you work to not say anything until you’re totally toast and then just to give them your two weeks notice and be gone? Is it kind to go get another job and being like, “all right, well, I give my two weeks because I’m already set up there.” That’s not kind, kind is saying, “I just want you to know where I’m at and this is what I’m starting to feel and I’m looking for some opportunities to do some different things, try to maybe get to do more of the things that I’m really excited about, or I’m wondering if you guys have ideas for advancement for me or what my career development might look like.”
And savvy leaders, they’ll make something, I’ve done that with my people a number of times as they come and they’re like, “look, this is what I’m looking for,” and I go, “well, I don’t want this person to leave, let’s figure out how to create some opportunities for them to see if we can keep them here.” And then going originally back to the candor of like maybe this isn’t the right place for you, I wrote an article, it’s probably been over a year ago, but it was called Fare Thee Truly Well, and this is from the other side, is from the management leadership side.
But I don’t think a lot of people can do this, but I have met more and more people who said, “I hire these people and I want to train them and I want to grow them, and I do that in the full knowledge that they might outgrow my practice. They might come along and get skills and knowledge and grow until there’s really not much else here for them to do and they’re going to go somewhere else. And rather than resent that, rather than try to not let that happen, I’m just going to accept that that is going to happen, I’m going to continue to grow and develop people because it’s morally right and teaching is what I love to do and I’m going to believe that karma is out there and that good things will come back to me from growing people and even facilitating them going on to the next adventure.”
But I’ve met enough of those people over the years and people who have worked for those people and then gone on that really, when you start thinking about what’s important in life and the type of employer you want to be, I think that there’s a lot to that. But it’s not a mindset that comes naturally to people, people, they generally want to, if they have talented people that work for them, they want to keep those people and of course they do.

Jeff Backus:
And it’s very easy from that managerial perspective to become defensive and take it personally that this person is not happy in their role and they’re not being fulfilled. And so you have to lay down that armor a little bit and just be like, “look, we can do this, but let’s just have a couple of conversations and involve some other people here about this,” because probably that’s not the only person in the clinic that feels that way and it’s not going to be the only person down the road that feels that way and so got to find solutions.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I heard some terminology recently, someone told to me, I can’t remember where it comes from, but basically they were like, “there’s a couple of different types of really high-flyers in a business, there’s your superstars and there’s your rock stars. And your rock stars are people who are good at what they do and they like coming out and playing the song. And your superstars are the ones who, they are going somewhere, meaning that they’re doing new things, they are trying new things and they are soaring. And the superstars are great, they are self-driven, they know where they want to be, they want to grow. But the downside to superstars is they’re probably going to leave, they’re probably going to come and they’re going to leave.”
And I just thought it was really interesting the idea of just owning that to say and there are some people who are not interested in going on, they want to be very good at what they do and they want to remain challenged. And as long as they feel like they are good and they are challenged in their work and they do good jobs, they’re totally fine to punch the clock for 25 years and do it. And it’s not a bad thing, it’s not a knock, but for those people who are superstars and feel like, “I’m really internally driven, I want to keep trying new things, I get bored easily,” that can just be a different environment.
And so it was funny because the point of the article was, you want to have a mixture of rock stars and superstars, is you really don’t want everybody who’s gunning and trying to be a high-flyer like a couple of those people because they push everything forward. But it’s also really good to have people who are happy to be challenged in the way they were, so anyway, I thought that was really interesting.
What are your favorite resources for technicians? So obviously you guys have a podcast, it’s called Vet Tech Cafe, it’s an excellent podcast, as I said, I really like it, I really enjoy it, it is a lot of technician guests and talking to them about their careers and lessons that they learned and things like that. Are there other resources that you like for technicians?

Dave Cowan:
In terms of podcasting or-

Dr. Andy Roark:
No-

Dave Cowan:
… Just in general?

Dr. Andy Roark:
… I was more thinking, well, in terms of our action plan of trying to figure out where you want to go, what you want your career to be like. Just in general, if somebody said, “God, I’m feeling stagnant, not necessarily that I’m looking to go somewhere different or do something different, but I want something that’s going to make me not feel stagnant.”

Dave Cowan:
I would advocate for CE and it used to be a very commonplace thing where everyone had this CE allowance where they could go to conferences, they could go to different CE. And many years ago, one of the stipulations that I had with some of my CE was that if you’re going to go learn something, come back and teach it. And I really enjoyed that and I think that’s probably what got me on my path to enjoying teaching and enjoying doing CE and things like that.
But just going out and networking with other people and getting some continuing education, a lot of times you’ll go there and you may not learn anything new, but the experience of being there, like we have this post-conference invigoration always when we come back we’re like, “I learned this thing, we’re going to do this on our practice,” and we get back and a lot of times the people that we work with are like, “we’re not going to do that.” But if you come back invigorated and you can bring that to management and say, “we learned how to do this one little thing with these types of cases, can we try and incorporate that?” And I feel like people that get stuck and stagnant and burned out and leave is because they’re doing the same thing over and over and over again.
And back to Jeff’s point about finding other things to do in your practice, it’s a little bit more relevant to an ER referral practice because there are different departments. I feel like for me, the reason that I’ve stayed in this field so long is that I’ve done different things, I haven’t been doing the one thing for 25 years, I’ve been doing different things. And I feel like if you go to CE, you’ll learn about something and maybe that inspires you to try a different way or even move to a different department in your hospital to entertain your mind and make you more useful and get you thinking instead of just doing the same thing over and over again.
I feel like that’s one of the things that I would recommend for people, is to educate yourself, there’s a vast amount of knowledge and we are never going to learn all of it in this field and I think sometimes people don’t realize that, that there’s no limit to what we can learn here. And I found that the more that I educated myself, the more that I went to CE, the more invigorated I was to stay in the field.

Dr. Andy Roark:
I love it. Guys, I’m going to put links to the Vet Tech Cafe in the show notes, I’ll put a link to the episode that I did with you guys a year ago, if you want to hear us, flip it around and go the other way, they can check that out. Thank you both so much for being here, guys, thanks for tuning in and listening, take care of yourselves everybody.

And that is the episode, that’s what I got for you guys, I hope you enjoyed it. Thanks again to Dave and Jeff for coming on, gang, check out their podcast about Tech Cafe, I said I’ll put links into it down in the show notes. If you are enjoying this podcast, one of the nice things you can do is leave me an honest review wherever you get your podcast, it always means the world to me, it’s how people find the show, it’s super important, so like and share the episodes if you enjoy them. Guys, take care of yourselves out there, be well everybody, talk to you soon, bye.