Sheri Gilmartin, head of data services at Vetsource, joins the podcast today to break down data on what happened in 2022 at over 6500 veterinary practices across the United States. In short, patient visits were down and prices were up, but the story is much more complicated than that. Let’s get into it!
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LINKS
Practice Managers’ Summit – March 22, 2023: https://unchartedvet.com/upcoming-events/
Uncharted Veterinary Conference – April 20-22, 2023: https://unchartedvet.com/uvc-april-2023/
Dr. Andy Roark Exam Room Communication Tool Box Course: https://drandyroark.com/on-demand-staff-training/
Dr. Andy Roark Swag: drandyroark.com/shop
All Links: linktr.ee/DrAndyRoark
ABOUT OUR GUEST
Sheri Gilmartin is a Credentialed Veterinary Technician and has been working in the veterinary industry for 30 years. She started her career in a small animal hospital outside of Boston MA where she worked as a technician for 8 years. In 2000, she made the move to Industry and has held various positions in sales and marketing at Hill’s Pet Nutrition, Vetsource, Patterson, and VetSuccess. In 2018, Vetsource acquired VetSuccess, where Sheri leads sales of Data Services today.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
This podcast transcript is made possible thanks to a generous gift from Banfield Pet Hospital, which is striving to increase accessibility and inclusivity across the veterinary profession. Click here to learn more about Equity, Inclusion & Diversity at Banfield.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Welcome everybody to the Cone of Shame Veterinary podcast. I am your host, Dr. Andy Roark. I’m here today with one and only Sheri Gilmartin. She is the head of data services at Vetsource and they’re working with 6,500 practices across the industry. And I’m going to talk to her about the data from 6,500 practices that came out in 2022. I want to understand what’s going on in practices, what the big industry trends are, what the revenue trends are, what the pet owner trends are.
And what I’m trying to do is get a clear picture of what 2023 might look like. Guys, this is a great conversation. It’s a lot of mixed messaging, which of course that’s why, that’s the real world. Visits by pet owners is down, our revenue’s up, prices are up. What does that mean? Can we keep going that way? Can we keep losing pet owners coming in and just increase the prices? We all know that at some point that doesn’t work anymore. When is that going to happen? What can we do to reverse the trend? Where are these pet owners going? That’s all stuff we get into. It’s a really good conversation. Guys, I hope you’ll enjoy it. Let’s get into this episode.
Kelsey Beth Carpenter:
(singing) This is your show. We’re glad you’re here. We want to help you in your veterinary career. Welcome to the Cone of Shame with Dr. Andy Roark.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Welcome to the podcast, Sheri Gilmartin, thanks for being here.
Sheri Gilmartin:
Thank you for having me. Happy to be here.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh, it is my pleasure. I’ve been looking forward to this conversation for a while now. So you are, for people who don’t know, you are a certified veterinary technician. You are the head of data services at Vetsource and I was introduced to you through our mutual friend Dr. Emily Tincher and I was talking to her about this desire that I have to be able to look into 2023 and get a better feel of where our industry is going. And so I started trying to make some better predictions about what the future’s going to be like.
And we were still talking about the best way to see the future is to look at the past and she recommended you as someone who has a lot of insight into the trends in our industry and what’s happening. And so I was hoping that you and I could talk today and here in the first two weeks of January, if we could look back at 2022. And I’m interested in your rundown of the industry as you saw it and the trends that you thought were really interesting and the ones that you think will kind of define maybe what 2023 might look like.
Sheri Gilmartin:
Yeah, good question. So I’m happy to be here and appreciate Emily connecting us. I have access to 6,500 practices, the data from 6,500 practices. We provide data services, analytics and reporting to these practices and we’ve aggregated it to get a sense of what’s happening across the industry. And looking back at 22, certainly it was an interesting year, right? Decline in visits across practices beginning in January and continuing through December, an increase in revenue. But we know that practices had multiple revenue increases last year.
And so when we look toward the end of the year, we’re seeing that revenue was up 5%, which is lower than the price increases that were taken last year.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Sure.
Sheri Gilmartin:
So, when we compare it to the prior year, we see that we were down in 2022 compared to 2021. Now that being said, we really do need to dig in a bit deeper because 2021 was an exceptional year and we had tremendous growth. And so you would expect level setting. And so it’s hard to look at that and be able to predict what’s going to happen in 2023.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Sheri Gilmartin:
Certainly the economy is going to play a big part there in what happens, but I think the takeaway for me is we really do need to be paying close attention to the numbers because we need to be more proactive and less reactive, as we were in 2020 for example.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Okay, let’s start to break some of this apart. So 2021 was a huge, huge growth year sort of coming out of the pandemic and the world sort of opening back up and big demands and pandemic puppies and kittens and things like that. When you look at sort of 2022, has there been a time that you’ve looked at it and said, let’s take 2021 out of the equation. Is there any attempt to normalize what this might look like? If we pretend the pandemic years 2020, 2021 didn’t happen, does that look more normal? If there was just a hole in the data, would they look much more smooth or is there any way to try to predict of what… I guess what I’m trying to get at is what does level setting look like and have we done that?
Sheri Gilmartin:
Yeah, good question. And it’s hard. So the data that we have for practices, we have data back to 2018, 2019. And so 2020 was also an interesting year because we had everybody on lockdown in March, in April. So the numbers for 2020 are kind of skewed by that. And so when you compare 2021 to 2020, you have some outpaced growth there. If we go back to 2019 and I look at things like appointments and unique patients, revenue per patient back in 2019, 2022 is pretty comparable to 2019. So if we took the pandemic years out of it certainly takes away some of the doom and gloom that people might feel when they look at the 2022 numbers. There’s still a lot of good things happening at the patient level and across practices overall looking back pre pandemic.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Okay, that makes me feel better. I do like that. That’s actually what I was looking for, is how does this match up to 2019. Let’s talk a little bit about decreasing visits. So you said this really sort of started in January, 2022 we’re starting to see this decrease in visits. What is your perception of the drivers of this decrease?
Sheri Gilmartin:
Yeah, that’s a good question. And so that’s a challenge with data because we can see what’s happening but really understanding the why, that’s where you have to speculate a bit and it’s probably a combination of things and I think for me, the workforce challenges that practices have faced is a significant part of that. Many practices are down, doctors don’t have enough support staff and have had to reduce the number of available appointments as a result. So certainly that plays into it. And then there’s also a little bit of culture shift happening where practices are really focused on preventing burnout, trying to preserve the staff that they do have and have extended appointment times, not seeing as many walk-ins or agreeing to see add on appointments at the end of the day. So there’s a whole host of things that can contribute to that.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, I didn’t hear you say, there’s economy concerns, there’s people deciding that their pet doesn’t need wellness visits to the vet, things like that. Is that type of consumer driven? Because what you just said is very much veterinary side driven, which makes some sense to me. I work with a lot of practices who don’t have the capacity, they have a capacity problem and so they’re saying we can’t see this many patients.
And so if you said, well your patient numbers are down and they said, well I was five vets and now I’m three vets, of course they’re down. And I would say that that makes sense. And when you talk about the health of the practice, it’s not really bad. There’s nothing wrong with running a three vet practice that is at maximum capacity as long as it’s a well run practice and it’s profitable and you’re taking care of your people. There’s nothing magical about more vets is better. It depends, I guess it depends on your worldview, but to me a three vet practice where the people are healthy and happy, they are going to see fewer appointments, but that doesn’t mean that they’re failing, it means that they’re actually have as much business as they can do. So talk to me a little bit about that. Are there things that appear to be on the pet owner client side that are pushing this?
Sheri Gilmartin:
Yeah, so I don’t think people are going to stop seeking veterinary care. So we think about the economy and we know that the economy is slowing and it’s unknown yet if we’re going to go into a recession in 2023. But ahead of that, we know that people cut back on spending. We know that consumer spending was up in 2021, people weren’t going out as much after COVID they had more money to spend as a result, they were with their pets more often and so they were spending more at their veterinarian in 2020 and 2021. We know that people are starting to pull back on spending and if we think about it, a slowing economy, some people are going to stop going to the veterinarian, their pets still need care. We know that they’re part of the family now. And so that will happen, but they will look for lower cost alternatives potentially.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Sheri Gilmartin:
And they will, for some elective services, they may say, I’m going to skip that blood work this year or I’m going to skip that fecal this year.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Sheri Gilmartin:
So I think that from an economy perspective, we will potentially see lower revenue per patient, but I don’t think that if your pet is sick or your pet needs their vaccination, we’re not going to see a decline in visits from that. We may see the time between visits be a bit longer. So the other thing with visits is, and it’s not just service visits. When we look at visits, we’re also looking at invoices that may just be for product purchases. I needed food or I needed prevention for my pet. And so those are counted as visits. And so when we look at the decline in visits, it’s almost like touchpoints with the pet.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Right.
Sheri Gilmartin:
And it could be more than one visit per year for that patient. It could be people coming in to purchase supplies. And so that is down overall.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Sheri Gilmartin:
Again, there’s a bunch of different factors. And so I think that active patients, patients that are part of your practice, that probably hasn’t changed and it hasn’t grown over time, but length between visits, maybe looking to get some of their medications through online pharmacies, we’re certainly seeing an increase in that and that’s contributing to a decline in visits. To address your comment about, hey, we were a five doctor practice and now we’re three, but we’re profitable and maybe that’s okay. There’s certainly truth to that and it’s about profitability at the end of the day for sure. I think with that, if you’re still providing good customer service, your clients are happy, that’s going to be reflected in your revenue and your profitability and so that makes sense. I think that part of the challenge with practices is they may be down a doctor but they’re still trying to see those patients.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yes. And I think that is a big driver of a lot of wellness and burnout problems that we see. And so that’s kind of why I say that is. You can work at capacity at five vet practice and then work at capacity at a three vet practice. But what you can’t do is be a three vet practice working at a five vet practice capacity. And I see a lot of people trying to do that and it ends badly. So I do see that. I do think that’s a big driver for sort of our burnout.
I’m assuming that it is hard to look at practices across a group of practices and tease out what actual examinations are doing year to year. And I’m just guessing that it’s because every vet practice codes their examinations differently. But I guess why I’m saying that is, when you say this and you say, well that includes food and includes set aside purchase and stuff like that, I go, okay, that’s interesting. I’d love to strip all that stuff out and say how many times are veterinarians putting their hands on the pets and what is the change like there? Am I correct in saying that’s really hard to look at because of how practices code and record these veterinarian interactions differently?
Sheri Gilmartin:
Yeah. So every single practice has their own unique set of codes and descriptions for their services and you would be amazed at how many different ways you could describe Simparica trio for example. You could find thousands of different descriptions. It is unique. We’ve spent years normalizing data from practices so that we can be able to identify exams or visits where they’re just coming in to buy product and what that product is. And so we’ve done a lot of work over the past 10 years to normalize practice data to be able to provide these insights. So when we look at practice data, regardless of what the practice has for an exam and there’s rechecks and then there’s pre surgical exams and then there’s well visits and sick visits, we are able to see that all of those were exams and something that the patient had to be present for. So we are able to separate that versus something like a product only visit. So we usually categorize visits as a well visit and we categorize a well visit as they’ve had a vaccination on the invoice and we know that that’s not perfect, but we…
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. No, I get you.
Sheri Gilmartin:
It’s as close as we can get. We know that there’s maybe exams that the patient didn’t need vaccines or on a three year protocol, but we’re using that as our identifier for a well visit versus an invoice where there was no vaccination, no heart room test. We’re going to say, okay, that was a sick visit. And then if there’s no exam, we’ll say, okay, this was for product only where they’re just coming in to buy drugs and medication supplies. So I can tell you all visits are down across practices and when I say this, all visits are down, note that this is the average across all practices. So there are some that are up, there’s some that are down more than what we’re seeing. That’s the average. We see sick and well visits are down, but what’s actually down the most is product only visits. Those have had the biggest decline from the prior year.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah. Is the assumption that those products are not getting picked up or that they’re getting picked up from a non veterinary channel?
Sheri Gilmartin:
Yeah.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Or do you have an opinion?
Sheri Gilmartin:
Yeah. No, I suspect that those transactions are going to third party online pharmacies.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, okay. Just checking.
Sheri Gilmartin:
No, I was going to jump into the whole efficiency thing. We talked about capacity and there is a workforce shortage and many practices are over capacity or at capacity. And so, one of the things that we talk about often is efficiencies. And both for pet owners and for practices, it’s more efficient for a pet owner to be able to have their product shipped to their home than to have to go run one more errand. And from a practice perspective, practices that have their own online pharmacies and leverage it appropriately and market it and promote it with their pet owners, they don’t have to touch that either. It goes right to the pet owners. So it’s helping make them more efficient. So thinking about efficiencies to increase our capacity without having to add headcount is something that we really need to focus on in 2023.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh absolutely. Yeah. I’m a big believer in that. Direct ship, autoship, things like that, that we can set up through the practices. It just, it’s the pet owners, it makes sense for us, it’s good for our workforce and being able to keep our capacity and still put our hands on pets and do the work that matters. So I completely agree with that.
Hey guys, I just want to hop in really quick and give a quick plug. The Uncharted Veterinary Conference is coming in April. Guys, I founded the Uncharted Veterinary Conference in 2017. It is one of a kind conference. It is all about business. It is about internal communications working effectively inside your practice. If you’re a leader, that means you can be a medical director. It means you can be an associate vet who really wants to work well with your technicians.
It means you can be a head technician, a head CSR, you can be practice owner, practice manager, multi-site manager, multi-site medical director. We work with a lot of those people. This is all about building systems, setting expectations to work effectively with your people. Guys, Uncharted is a pure mentorship conference. That means that we come together and there is a lot of discussion. We create a significant percentage of the schedule, the agenda at the event, which means we are going to talk about the things that you are interested in. It is always, as I said, business communication focused, but a lots of freedom inside that to make sure that you get to talk about what you want to talk about. We really prioritize people being able to have one-on-one conversations to pick people’s brains, to get advice from people who have wrestled with the problems that they are currently wrestled with.
We make all that stuff happen. If you want to come to a conference where you do not sit and get lectured at, but you work on your own practice, your own challenges, your own growth and development, that’s what Uncharted is. Take a chance, give us a look, come and check it out. It is in April. I’ll put a link in the show notes for registration. Ask anybody who’s been, it’s something special. All right, let’s get back into this episode.
Let’s talk a little bit about the pricing increases that we see on the other side of this. So we see visits going down, but we see pricing coming up so that basically we end up with, you said about a 5% increase in revenue, I think 2022 over 2021. And so talk to me a little bit about that. Are there trends in price increases that you’re seeing? Are these generally being done in large jumps? So are there anything that you just look at it from a picture of what’s going on, perspective. How does that break down? What’s the nuance in those numbers?
Sheri Gilmartin:
Yeah. So if we look at last year we saw that on average practices had about an eight and a half to 9% increase in prices.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Okay.
Sheri Gilmartin:
But what’s interesting is we saw that the overall impact on practice revenue was lower than it has been in the past. If we look back at 2021 and 2020, practices had about a four and a half to 5% increase on prices, but the impact on revenue was 10%. And that is because of the reduction in visits and patients per practice, right?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Right.
Sheri Gilmartin:
So we’re seeing higher price increases, but a lower impact on revenue because our visits are down. And so we did an analysis a few years ago when we said, what’s it a stronger driver of practice revenue growth? Is it a higher ECT or is it more visits per year per patient?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Okay.
Sheri Gilmartin:
And what we found is, well while both will contribute to revenue growth obviously, having more visits per year per patient is going to be a stronger revenue driver for the practice overall. And so similar to what we saw last year, we have higher price increases, but lower revenue growth because we had fewer visits. And so it’s interesting because as you know, the decline in visits has happened over the last 12 months. It’s already continuing in the beginning of January. If the economy, we’re seeing potentially a recession, we expect that we’re going to continue to see a decline in visits. And so the reaction from practices is going to be, well, we have to increase prices to maintain revenue. And then at what point and after how many price increases do pet owners start to have some sticker shock and then that further drives a reduction in visits.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Well, that was going to be my next question. So I had Fritz Wood on, who’s a financial sort of advisor for the industry and for veterinarians. And we talked a bit about setting prices in vet medicine and he talked a lot about price elasticity. And it sounds like that’s what you’re getting into, is the pricing is elastic to a point where you can increase the prices and pet owners will continue to pay them. But at some point there’s a place where pet owners start to balk at the prices and say, well, I’m not paying this. Do you think that there… Are there benchmarks that you look at that signal to you when we’re reaching a point of price inelasticity? Do you think that there is an ability, a capacity to continue to raise prices for another year like this? Or do you think that 2023 is going to be the year that pet owners go, no, I can’t. I’m not doing this.
Sheri Gilmartin:
Yeah. That’s a good question. Certainly when we look at the average percent price increase on a service and in 2022, it was a larger increase on professional services. I think for our products, for the most part, were just passing on any price increases from the manufacturers. But then the price increases that we saw last year were predominantly on professional services. And we then will look to see how many invoices did that service then continue to appear on, to try to get a sense of after that price increases, did owners start saying no to that?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Interesting.
Sheri Gilmartin:
And I think it’s when we look at compliance numbers from last year, compliance with wellness care, so vaccinations and heartworm tests and annual blood work and fecals, compliance is actually up across the board. So we’re seeing the pet owners that are coming in continuing to say yes to services for their pet, which is a great thing, but we’re seeing the decline in visits. So to answer the question about at what point this impact, I think that people will continue to come in. People want to provide good care to their pets. That situation where your pet is shaking their head and you think, okay, every time I go to the veterinarian it costs me $500. So can I get away with not going for this head shaking right now?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Sure.
Sheri Gilmartin:
Can I phone a friend? Can I do a Google search? How can I get away with not going? And so that probably will continue to impact the visits.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, that makes sense to me. I have two friends and they’re arguing right now and one of them says that there are things we can do in efficiency and in home delivery with our pharmacy that can keep us cost competitive and that is a battle worth fighting. And I have another friend and they’re both very smart people and the other friend says, we should let this go. We should increase the prices on our professional services, our diagnostics, and let a lot of the product services go. Or I mean, and his position is rather extreme. He’s like, well, I think we should get out of this product business. I listen to the two of them argue and they both have some good points. And I’m curious, where do you fall in this argument?
Sheri Gilmartin:
Yeah. I agree with you that they both have good points. If you just look at percentage of total revenue from professional services, obviously it’s a lot higher, it’s a bigger piece of your business and your margins are higher there. At the same time, your product sales are 25% of your revenue. And so if you let them go, you have to increase the prices on your professional services to make up for that. And we know that pet owners get sticker shock, right?
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Sheri Gilmartin:
When we are thinking about implementing price increases for 2023, VHMA is a great resource in terms of strategic pricing and really being intentional with your price increases as opposed to just doing a blanket price increase across the board to try to reduce any sticker shock, but still having a significant impact on your practice revenue. I think that not only is the product purchases a big percentage of your total revenue, but it’s like destination shopping, right?
You need to get prevention, you need to get food, you need to get glucosamine supplements. And having those, the pet owners are going to do that and having them get it from you and having those touchpoints, whether it be through your online store or whether it be coming into your practice, it’s maintaining that relationship and that total service for the pet. So, while I think that they both have good points. If I owned a practice, I would try and compete. I would try and compete and try to keep that business to the best I can. And there’s tools for practices to be able to compete.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Oh, I agree. I’m split down the middle. I think I really go back and forth. I say I am generally a pro competition guy. I think that there’s a lot of things that we can do. I think there’s good communication. I think there’s a lot of, like I said, autoship, direct home delivery, things like that. I think convenience is a huge deal for a lot of people. I think that there’s some things that are going to be really hard to keep. I don’t think it’s all or none.
I think it’s about having a smart strategy about where you can be competitive, where you bring the best value, where you can support pet owners and making things as simple and convenient for them as possible. I think that there’s a lot of good strategy in that. I also hear my friend who says, we should charge for our knowledge and our intellect and our hands on services because those are the things that we really excel at that other people can’t do. So to me this is very much a happy medium. I was just curious as to where you fell in it. And I also thought it’s sort of an interesting way to ask you what your advice would be for practices and how if you had one, you would approach this. So that’s why I want to put that out to you.
Sheri Gilmartin:
Well, I think most practices today have an online pharmacy and offer home delivery, but they don’t promote it. If you asked their clients, if their clients knew that they had home delivery and an online store, maybe and I’m being generous, maybe half of them might say, oh, that… So they don’t promote it. And when you think about the third party pharmacies that are out there, they have heavy marketing.
I mean, you’re getting bills and retargeting as some social media. I mean they are all over the place marketing to your clients. And so there’s the practices know who their patients are and what medications they’re on or what diets they’re on. I know who’s had a heartworm test and who’s been in the last year and you need prevention and I know what you’re buying and there’s automated services that will do this marketing for you. Companies, Vetsource will do this marketing for you. We’ll send reminder emails that you need to get more medication and here’s a link to do that easily. Practices just need to market to their clients that this is available in the same way that the competitors are.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, it was funny you say that. Because I was thinking about that today when I woke up this morning and I opened up my inbox and I got eight different emails from companies that I haven’t really engaged with that are like, do you need this for your pet? Do you need this for your pet? And they’re like, they’re fishing. They have no idea what I need for my pet. But they’re like, we got this thing and we got that thing. And I don’t think veterinarians should be that way, but I do think there is a happy ethical medium in between. Hey, we have these things but we feel kind of awkward talking to you about them, so we’re just not going to say anything and buy some random stuff from us.
There’s a lot of healthy space between those two things. And I really think, the way I put it to people is, my position is, I would say that veterinarians have a moral obligation to tell pet owners what we can do for them and to educate them about how we can help keep their pet healthier. And to me a lot about communicating our services and as far as home delivery and things like that to make their life easier and to make these things appear as needed, it kind of falls into that, this is a good thing for them and it’s a good thing for us category. So anyway, that’s just where I am. It sounds like you and I are in a pretty similar position there.
Sheri Gilmartin:
What you said about you’re getting these emails with just blanket marketing, hey, look at all the stuff we have. That’s not what we’re suggesting. Part of our job at data services is to utilize the data in the practice management software to find who’s that canine that he’s had an exam and in the last 12 months he’s had a heartworm test, he needs heartworm protection, and he’s on this product and oh, we’re going to help that pet owner out and say, hey, Fluffy still needs their heartworm prevention, just a reminder for you to do this.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Sheri Gilmartin:
And it’s very specific and it’s very personalized and it is continuation of care for that patient. It is not just neon signs of sale.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah.
Sheri Gilmartin:
Look at all these things.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, exactly.
Sheri Gilmartin:
And so, that to me is a service that I would want to provide my clients.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Yeah, it’s the difference in a recommendation from your doctor and just a general drive-by advertising campaign for whatever happened to be on sale. They’re radically different things.
Sheri Gilmartin:
But that’s what the competitors are doing, right? I mean, it’s that they’re retargeting, they know what you searched for on their website, but they don’t know your pet and they don’t know what’s going on with your pet and what medications your pet’s on and the practices do. And so I think that they have a huge advantage over some of the other pharmacies and just need to choose to compete and utilize the services that are available.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Sheri, thanks so much for being here. Thanks for talking through this with me. I really appreciate it. Where can people find you? Where can they learn more about Vetsource, about data services?
Sheri Gilmartin:
So on vetsource.com, you can learn more about data services and the work that we do for veterinary practices and for the industry with market research. And then if anybody has any questions or wants to talk about data specifically with me, I am on LinkedIn under Sheri Gilmartin.
Dr. Andy Roark:
Awesome. Guys, thanks so much for being here. Thanks again, Sheri.
Sheri Gilmartin:
Thank you.
Dr. Andy Roark:
And that is our episode. Thanks again to Sheri for being here. Guys, thanks to you for being here. If you got something out of the episode, if it made you smile, if you learned something, feel free to share it with your friends who might like it. It’s how people find the podcast. Always feel free to write us an honest review wherever you get your podcast. That always means the world to me. But again, take care of yourselves, be well. I’ll talk to you later. Bye.